Community Charge

[Butts]

Let's see who can remember the palaver over this particular Tax and try and find an equitable solution for Local Authority Funding. As the majority of this comes from Central Government and Business Rates is it worth collecting the other 20% in it's current form - ie The Council Tax.

Was the Community Charge or Poll Tax as it was known (for the benefit of younger members) really unfair in principle or was it the rate it was set at ?
The principle that everyone makes a contribution is surely quite egalitarian.

Successive Governments had ducked doing a "rate revaluation" that was necessary for decades and hence got themselves in a bit of a jam.

I bought a 1 Bedroom Bungalow in 1988 and was paying treble the rates my Mother in Law was in a three bedroom house as it was much older although probably worth more. Of course Council Tenants used to pay Rates as part of their rent so it came as a shot out of the blue.

When the Poll Tax arrived the initial payment was £858 (£429 each) my wife did not work. However we did get transitional relief which helped a little bit. Far more harmful were the 15% interest rates around the same time.

My belief is that the level of the charge was the problem not the Tax itself.

Going forward I think all Local Authority Funding should be allocated centrally as it would save a fortune with regard to what it must cost to collect. To replace the missing funds just whack Income tax up by whatever is required.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Let's see who can remember the palaver over this particular Tax and try and find an equitable solution for Local Authority Funding. As the majority of this comes from Central Government and Business Rates is it worth collecting the other 20% in it's current form - ie The Council Tax.

Was the Community Charge or Poll Tax as it was known (for the benefit of younger members) really unfair in principle or was it the rate it was set at ?
The principle that everyone makes a contribution is surely quite egalitarian.

Successive Governments had ducked doing a "rate revaluation" that was necessary for decades and hence got themselves in a bit of a jam.

I bought a 1 Bedroom Bungalow in 1988 and was paying treble the rates my Mother in Law was in a three bedroom house as it was much older although probably worth more. Of course Council Tenants used to pay Rates as part of their rent so it came as a shot out of the blue.

When the Poll Tax arrived the initial payment was £858 (£429 each) my wife did not work. However we did get transitional relief which helped a little bit. Far more harmful were the 15% interest rates around the same time.

My belief is that the level of the charge was the problem not the Tax itself.

Going forward I think all Local Authority Funding should be allocated centrally as it would save a fortune with regard to what it must cost to collect. To replace the missing funds just whack Income tax up by whatever is required.

But remember, we got the Poll Tax a year earlier up here than the rest of the UK. My parents were of that generation and they refused to pay it.

Whack up Income Tax? Aye right...I struggle to make £14K a year and already I get taxed enough on that without it increasing....

 

[Butts]

But remember, we got the Poll Tax a year earlier up here than the rest of the UK. My parents were of that generation and they refused to pay it.

Whack up Income Tax? Aye right...I struggle to make £14K a year and already I get taxed enough on that without it increasing....

The reason it started in Scotland was at the request of Local Authorities as the rates as they stood were creating a funding crisis.

Well if you struggle to make 14K per year you won't be paying much income tax anyway - how much Council Tax do you pay ?

If your parents refused to pay The Poll Tax did they still pay what they were charged under the old system ?

 

[underbank]

My belief is that the level of the charge was the problem not the Tax itself.

That's how I recall was the problem. When it was first proposed, there were talking about £200-£250 per head which I think was a figure generally acceptable, but by the time they'd factored in the discounts/exemptions for unemployed/disabled etc., it turned out they had to charge more like £400-£450 to cover those discounts/exemptions and get the same funds. So it turned out that the average person paying full whack ended up paying twice what was first proposed. I recall that was the killer blow - the eventual cost, not the principle. Someone didn't do their sums properly in the first place - it would never have seen the light of day if that kind of money had been highlighted in the early stages!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The main problem was that it wasn't egalitarian. Charging everyone the same amount, regardless of means to pay, is not egalitarian. It was an extremely regressive tax. £400 a year for someone earning £4000 a year is a lot of money. £400 a year for someone earning £40,000 a year is less so. Charging everyone the same amount sounds egalitarian but isn't, it is a tax that essentially means those with money pay less than those without. Though you are right, if the amount hadn't been so eye-watering there would have been fewer complaints.

Council tax isn't much better, being based on notional property prices rather than ability to pay (and only half the tax being based on occupants of a house, hence why a single person discount is only 25%), but at least there's a general principle that people in more expensive houses have more money.

The problem in this country is that most of our tax is regressive. VAT and excise duties pay no regard to ability to pay. That is ok when it's only charged on luxuries, but thanks to the Tories we get charged VAT on domestic fuel as well as a good number of other essential items.

I'd abolish most of these hidden taxes and have an income tax rate that actually reflects how much money government needs (to spend on bombing Brown people for no reason). But the big weakness of income tax is that- unless you're on PAYE- it is extremely easy to avoid.

 

[Greenback]

The main problem was that it wasn't egalitarian. Charging everyone the same amount, regardless of means to pay, is not egalitarian. It was an extremely regressive tax. £400 a year for someone earning £4000 a year is a lot of money. £400 a year for someone earning £40,000 a year is less so. Charging everyone the same amount sounds egalitarian but isn't, it is a tax that essentially means those with money pay less than those without. Though you are right, if the amount hadn't been so eye-watering there would have been fewer complaints.

Council tax isn't much better, being based on notional property prices rather than ability to pay (and only half the tax being based on occupants of a house, hence why a single person discount is only 25%), but at least there's a general principle that people in more expensive houses have more money.

The problem in this country is that most of our tax is regressive. VAT and excise duties pay no regard to ability to pay. That is ok when it's only charged on luxuries, but thanks to the Tories we get charged VAT on domestic fuel as well as a good number of other essential items.

I'd abolish most of these hidden taxes and have an income tax rate that actually reflects how much money government needs (to spend on bombing Brown people for no reason). But the big weakness of income tax is that- unless you're on PAYE- it is extremely easy to avoid.

I totally agree. VAT is an unfair tax, so was the Poll Tax and any other tax that doesn't take into account the ability to pay.

Another problem in this country is that the funding system for local councils is a bit of a mess. It all needs a revamp, but I don't really know where to start...

 

[Butts]

I totally agree. VAT is an unfair tax, so was the Poll Tax and any other tax that doesn't take into account the ability to pay.

Another problem in this country is that the funding system for local councils is a bit of a mess. It all needs a revamp, but I don't really know where to start...

Is the Television Licence unfair then as it is effectively a Poll Tax albeit on a household rather than individual basis ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The main problem was that it wasn't egalitarian. Charging everyone the same amount, regardless of means to pay, is not egalitarian. It was an extremely regressive tax. £400 a year for someone earning £4000 a year is a lot of money. £400 a year for someone earning £40,000 a year is less so. Charging everyone the same amount sounds egalitarian but isn't, it is a tax that essentially means those with money pay less than those without. Though you are right, if the amount hadn't been so eye-watering there would have been fewer complaints.

Council tax isn't much better, being based on notional property prices rather than ability to pay (and only half the tax being based on occupants of a house, hence why a single person discount is only 25%), but at least there's a general principle that people in more expensive houses have more money.

The problem in this country is that most of our tax is regressive. VAT and excise duties pay no regard to ability to pay. That is ok when it's only charged on luxuries, but thanks to the Tories we get charged VAT on domestic fuel as well as a good number of other essential items.

I'd abolish most of these hidden taxes and have an income tax rate that actually reflects how much money government needs (to spend on bombing Brown people for no reason). But the big weakness of income tax is that- unless you're on PAYE- it is extremely easy to avoid.

Why does no one complain about Water Charges because they are based on a notional rateable value of a property (unless you have a meter) with no regard of ability to pay.

Is it because generally poorer people live in lower rateable valued homes and therefore incur a lower charge.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

The reason it started in Scotland was at the request of Local Authorities as the rates as they stood were creating a funding crisis.

Well if you struggle to make 14K per year you won't be paying much income tax anyway - how much Council Tax do you pay ?

If your parents refused to pay The Poll Tax did they still pay what they were charged under the old system ?

I pay just over £100 a month in Council Tax, which is daylight robbery for the size of my flat.

No, once the Poll Tax arrived, my parents didnt pay anything and still to this day they still feel that they done the right thing, and it's not only because of that, but other things as well that I will never ever vote Tory in my lifetime.

 

[Butts]

The main problem was that it wasn't egalitarian. Charging everyone the same amount, regardless of means to pay, is not egalitarian. It was an extremely regressive tax. £400 a year for someone earning £4000 a year is a lot of money. £400 a year for someone earning £40,000 a year is less so. Charging everyone the same amount sounds egalitarian but isn't, it is a tax that essentially means those with money pay less than those without. Though you are right, if the amount hadn't been so eye-watering there would have been fewer complaints.

Council tax isn't much better, being based on notional property prices rather than ability to pay (and only half the tax being based on occupants of a house, hence why a single person discount is only 25%), but at least there's a general principle that people in more expensive houses have more money.

The problem in this country is that most of our tax is regressive. VAT and excise duties pay no regard to ability to pay. That is ok when it's only charged on luxuries, but thanks to the Tories we get charged VAT on domestic fuel as well as a good number of other essential items.

I'd abolish most of these hidden taxes and have an income tax rate that actually reflects how much money government needs (to spend on bombing Brown people for no reason). But the big weakness of income tax is that- unless you're on PAYE- it is extremely easy to avoid.

I thought VAT on Domestic Fuel was an EU inspired tax. Did I miss the Labour Party attempting to repeal it when in power or any of the other unnamed essential items subjected to VAT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I pay just over £100 a month in Council Tax, which is daylight robbery for the size of my flat.

No, once the Poll Tax arrived, my parents didnt pay anything and still to this day they still feel that they done the right thing, and it's not only because of that, but other things as well that I will never ever vote Tory in my lifetime.

You would have probably been better off under a Poll Tax then (assuming you live on your own).

Is Glasgow not a Labour controlled Council - looks like they have not done much for you either.

I can't agree with not paying anything at all as that deprives the Council of money to run essential services. If it's a principled stand surely to continue paying what you had been previously charged would have been a more honourable stance. Failing that it just looks like using a tax you don't agree with as an excuse to pay nothing.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

I thought VAT on Domestic Fuel was an EU inspired tax. Did I miss the Labour Party attempting to repeal it when in power or any of the other unnamed essential items subjected to VAT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You would have probably been better off under a Poll Tax then (assuming you live on your own).

Is Glasgow not a Labour controlled Council - looks like they have not done much for you either.

I can't agree with not paying anything at all as that deprives the Council of money to run essential services. If it's a principled stand surely to continue paying what you had been previously charged would have been a more honourable stance. Failing that it just looks like using a tax you don't agree with as an excuse to pay nothing.

Actually Labour have done great for me over that past few years which is why I'm now a party member and which can be more than said the for that wretched mob called the SNP who has split this country in half.

And as for Tories...don't get me started. The only person that I've got respect of from that quarter is Ruth Davidson...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I totally agree. VAT is an unfair tax, so was the Poll Tax and any other tax that doesn't take into account the ability to pay.

Being the age that I am, can I ask what your views are on Purchase Tax, as this was the precursor of Value Added Tax.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not sure I agree that VAT is an unfair tax. At least you have more of a choice of whether to pay it or not. If you live a frugal, anti-consumerist lifestyle, you would pay less VAT.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is the Television Licence unfair then as it is effectively a Poll Tax albeit on a household rather than individual basis ?

Yes.

Why does no one complain about Water Charges because they are based on a notional rateable value of a property (unless you have a meter) with no regard of ability to pay.

Plenty of people complain about the high cost of water.

Water is slightly different because you always have the choice of having a water meter installed, and for people on low incomes or living alone that saves them money.

You should see the complaints in Ireland about water charges being introduced!

I'm not sure I agree that VAT is an unfair tax. At least you have more of a choice of whether to pay it or not.

You can choose to sit in a cold house, or you can choose to pay VAT.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Our water is still under government control and is therefore included with our council tax. And also I wouldn't like to live in ROI with their water situation and meters that are getting put in...

 

[radamfi]

You should see the complaints in Ireland about water charges being introduced!

But before that, wasn't water totally free in Ireland (i.e. paid for out of general taxation)?

You can choose to sit in a cold house, or you can choose to pay VAT.

But you could change the things that VAT is levied on. The more progressive countries in Europe have a particularly high VAT rate, for example 25% in Denmark and Sweden and 24% in Finland.

 

[Butts]

Being the age that I am, can I ask what your views are on Purchase Tax, as this was the precursor of Value Added Tax.

My Dad told me a good tale about the introduction of VAT. A customer on being presented his bill at the end of meal said - "What's this VAT? I didn't order a Whisky"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Our water is still under government control and is therefore included with our council tax. And also I wouldn't like to live in ROI with their water situation and meters that are getting put in...

I believe Welsh Water is not privatised either, but neither being in Government Hands has led to much difference in the way of Bills compared to England. Indeed in England some areas have a "tanking" with regard to the amount they have to pay.

Surely basing Water Charges on actual usage is the fairest way to go rather than a notional rateable value - ie metred. Imagine if Electricity and Gas were charged the same way.

Again because this antiquated system largely benefits the poor there is not much fuss made regardless of it's founding on a flawed process.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Our water is still under government control and is therefore included with our council tax. And also I wouldn't like to live in ROI with their water situation and meters that are getting put in...

Is that really so....why does my Water Utilities company send me an annual bill that is totally unconnected to my Cheshire East council tax demand?

 

[Greenback]

Is the Television Licence unfair then as it is effectively a Poll Tax albeit on a household rather than individual basis ?

I'm not sure I agree that VAT is an unfair tax. At least you have more of a choice of whether to pay it or not. If you live a frugal, anti-consumerist lifestyle, you would pay less VAT.

Yes.

Plenty of people complain about the high cost of water.

Water is slightly different because you always have the choice of having a water meter installed, and for people on low incomes or living alone that saves them money.

You should see the complaints in Ireland about water charges being introduced!

You can choose to sit in a cold house, or you can choose to pay VAT.

Our water is still under government control and is therefore included with our council tax. And also I wouldn't like to live in ROI with their water situation and meters that are getting put in...

I tend to look at taxes separately from licences. Maybe I'm wrong to do it, but I just think of the TV licence as a means of having a TV and watching live programming. It's not something I absolutely must have. I could get rid of our TV tomorrow and entertain myself by watching DVD's, using iplayer, streaming movies and so on.

However, I'd be single as Mrs G would leave me if we didn't have a TV!

Similarly, I tend to look on VAT as something I don't have a choice in paying, as very few things are not subject to it. If it were limited to luxury goods (however that would be defined) maybe my views would be a bit different.

I can't remember Purchase Tax, or what it was payable on, so I can't really comment on that.

I think water meters are a good idea in general. They saved me money when I had one installed, and perhaps more importantly they encourage people not to waste water as well. Naturally, anyone who is going to end up paying more than they do now with a water meter is not going to be in favour of them.

 

[Butts]

Is that really so....why does my Water Utilities company send me an annual bill that is totally unconnected to my Cheshire East council tax demand?

He is referring to the system in Scotland where your Water Rates are paid with your Council Tax - ie one bill.

I wonder what happens in Scotland with metered houses, they must obviously have a separate bill

 

[Hornet]

Our water is still under government control and is therefore included with our council tax. And also I wouldn't like to live in ROI with their water situation and meters that are getting put in...

Nothing wrong over here. Just the usual headcases that think they should get something for nothing. It was part of the Troika's deal with the Irish government that Property and Water charges be introduced to pay back the bailout. (The troika is a tripartite committee led by the European Commission with the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund).

Confirmed in full: the water charges:-

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...irmed-in-full-the-water-charges-30758061.html

I just have a problem with the thuggery shown to the workforce trying to install water meters here. They have been attacked, labelled paedo's, and in one case holed up in their van by a large gang of anti's for 12 hours. It's also unacceptable that the minister in charge of this has been subject to several death threat's.

Irish Water: Caller to Environment Minister office vows to "shoot" the Labour TD as he gets four chilling death threats:-

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/irish-water-caller-environment-minister-4658766

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Nothing wrong over here. Just the usual headcases that think they should get something for nothing. It was part of the Troika's deal with the Irish government that Property and Water charges be introduced to pay back the bailout. (The troika is a tripartite committee led by the European Commission with the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund).

Confirmed in full: the water charges:-

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...irmed-in-full-the-water-charges-30758061.html

I just have a problem with the thuggery shown to the workforce trying to install water meters here. They have been attacked, labelled paedo's, and in one case holed up in their van by a large gang of anti's for 12 hours. It's also unacceptable that the minister in charge of this has been subject to several death threat's.

Irish Water: Caller to Environment Minister office vows to "shoot" the Labour TD as he gets four chilling death threats:-

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/irish-water-caller-environment-minister-4658766

The only reason I know about the Irish situation is because I just so happened to catch RTE Six One on a rare occasion which had it as it's top story.

 

[Butts]

The only reason I know about the Irish situation is because I just so happened to catch RTE Six One on a rare occasion which had it as it's top story.

What are those Paddy's moaning about less than £50 for a single household and £140 for a multiple household - a lot of people in the UK would be happy with a bill like that.

Plus even on such pitiful amounts there are relief schemes and allowances.

Anyone would think water fell from the sky

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Going forward I think all Local Authority Funding should be allocated centrally as it would save a fortune with regard to what it must cost to collect. To replace the missing funds just whack Income tax up by whatever is required.

I have to admit I'm somewhat puzzled as to why we don't just fund local authorities using income tax. Just have each local authority decide what incremental tax rate it wants to levy to fund whatever it needs to do, and have HMRC collect and distribute the money. It would still need to be backed up by central Government funding, to make sure the poorer areas don't lose out, but the bureaucracy it would save would be massive. No arguments about valuing houses, no separate admin in each local authority to collect it. No separate bills going out to everyone for tax and then council tax. And much fairer as it would be more clearly based on ability to pay.

Offhand, the main problem I can think of is you may need some extra fraud detection in case people start trying to cheat the system by pretending to live in lower-tax-rate authorities (you can guarantee someone will try doing that). And also, it'll be a bit harder for authorities to predict upfront how much revenue they'll get each year, so you'll probably need some compensatory mechanism - maybe to keep some money in reserve or for Central Govt to step in if revenues fall short, but those seem minor problems compared to the advantages.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What are those Paddy's moaning about less than £50 for a single household and £140 for a multiple household - a lot of people in the UK would be happy with a bill like that.

And in some parts of rural Ireland the water is still unfit for human consumption.

Taxes in Ireland are already higher than they are here, don't forget.

The Irish government charges an annual tax of EUR30 for every single credit card you hold, and a tax of EUR5 for every debit card you hold. The banks will also charge you about EUR0.20 every time you buy anything on your debit card or pay out a standing order or Direct Debit, with credit card fees being a bit higher. Irish VAT is 23%. A GP visit will set you back EUR40.

I'm not surprised they're complaining, it's one tax too far.

 

[Hornet]

And in some parts of rural Ireland the water is still unfit for human consumption.

Taxes in Ireland are already higher than they are here, don't forget.

The Irish government charges an annual tax of EUR30 for every single credit card you hold, and a tax of EUR5 for every debit card you hold. The banks will also charge you about EUR0.20 every time you buy anything on your debit card or pay out a standing order or Direct Debit, with credit card fees being a bit higher. Irish VAT is 23%. A GP visit will set you back EUR40.

I'm not surprised they're complaining, it's one tax too far.

The 20 cent charge for a direct debit or using your debit card is news to me. I have lived here for 14 years and have yet to be charged for either from my bank. Credit card charges are normally put on by the company you purchase from (like Ryanair). Ther is an annual tax on both Debit and Credit Cards of €40 per card, and my Partner's Doctor charges €70 for a visit. Against all that you can get up to 52% back on your Public Transport commuter ticket, using the Taxsaver scheme, and the Jobseeker Allowance rate is €188.00, whilst the state pension is on a sliding scale up to €219.00 a week. Swings and Roundabouts really.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 20 cent charge for a direct debit or using your debit card is news to me. I have lived here for 14 years and have yet to be charged for either from my bank.

T'missus lived in Dublin and Kilkenny for ten years and banked with AIB. They charge 20 cents for each debit card transaction. Ulster Bank don't charge fees but do charge EUR4 a month account management fees. The stamp duty for financial cards is charged by the Government.

Swings and Roundabouts really.

Definitely. I guess my point is that the Irish (well, Sinn Fein) are complaining about the water taxes because of what else they're taxed on.

We pay water charges but don't have to fork out fifty quid every time we go to the GP. Swings and roundabouts, as you say.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Is the Television Licence unfair then as it is effectively a Poll Tax albeit on a household rather than individual basis ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why does no one complain about Water Charges because they are based on a notional rateable value of a property (unless you have a meter) with no regard of ability to pay.

Is it because generally poorer people live in lower rateable valued homes and therefore incur a lower charge.

Maybe because of water meters.
1973 notional rental values seem a poor basis for current payments for water in and out of the dwelling.
Make water metering compulsory for all dwellings I think.

 

[Hornet]

T'missus lived in Dublin and Kilkenny for ten years and banked with AIB. They charge 20 cents for each debit card transaction. Ulster Bank don't charge fees but do charge EUR4 a month account management fees. The stamp duty for financial cards is charged by the Government.



Definitely. I guess my point is that the Irish (well, Sinn Fein) are complaining about the water taxes because of what else they're taxed on.

We pay water charges but don't have to fork out fifty quid every time we go to the GP. Swings and roundabouts, as you say.

If your account is above a minimum monthly level at Ulster Bank you avoid any charges. Over here there is no Community Charge/Rates/Council Tax. Property Tax goes to the Local Council, whereas Bin collections are privatised. Utilities, including water, are State or Semi-State Companies. Much of what is provided in the UK from the Council Tax comes out of General Taxation in the ROI. If the Government here were ever to bring in a Council Tax, (not beyond the realms of possibility), I'd hate to think what the outcome would be regards street protests, seeing how aggresive things have been for the water charges.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see that Eire is being used as part of the discussion on this Community Charge thread and I wonder how other countries in the E C tend to use similar funding to achieve similar financial input.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If your account is above a minimum monthly level at Ulster Bank you avoid any charges. Over here there is no Community Charge/Rates/Council Tax. Property Tax goes to the Local Council, whereas Bin collections are privatised.

How does that work (and how well) OOI? Are there multiple companies to choose from and different levels of service? What sort of level are the fees?

Neil