Communication- a plea

[jopsuk]

nothing makes commuters quite as disgruntled as a lack of communication. Station staff, train crew, drivers: please, tell us what you know. Even if it is that you don't know.
For instance- this morning, there was disruption at Cambridge thanks to a train failing and ending up sat across the points at the south of the station. I boarded what I was told would be the next train going where I wanted to go once the failure was cleared- better than standing in the cold. Passngers on board the train (which was an NXEA service that starts in kings lynn) were unaware of the broken down train- they hadn't been told. I was on the train for twenty minutes when the hustle alarm sounded and we moved off- in that time, there was not one announcement audible on board- there were a couple of platform announcements, but by the time you stand up and open the doors to try and hear them, the useful information has gone.

I know that things were done as quickly as possible- but it would have been nice if the driver had taken a few seconds every five minutes or so to update passngers, even if he had no further information.

This comes after Monday evening, when northbound WA services went up the spout. No communication to passengers on outlying stations for over an hour, with the PIS screens uselessly showing the morning's cancellations. If there'd been announcements with a realistic estimate of when the next train might arrive, then I reckon more people would have made alternative arrangements and got somewhere warm faster. Uncertainty and lack of knowledge leads to unhappiness.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

One problem is that sometimes staff are so busy trying to get trains moving again, that they forget to make service announcements. Sometimes what staff know isn't for passenger consumption - for instance a driver spadded at High Street Kensington on the District Line - and it was announced as a signal failure.

But - in essence I agree with you, announcements should be made.

 

[Old Timer]

I think that the whole snow scenarion has brought into focus the fact that the Industry is still completely fragmented in its attitude and approach to severe weather.

Virgin has made much of its claim to be running the full service, but at best that service has been completely unreliable, particularly at the peaks.

What passengers will accept is a reduced service if it offers a better performance, rather than waiting as I did this morning to find that two London services in a row were cancelled, one then re-instated 20 minutes after it should have departed. Hanging around for 45 odd minutes on a cold morning is something that we can do without.

It would have been much more preferable for Virgin to have declared an emergency timetable and at least run a more reliable reduced service than attempt to run EVERYTHING when even the most infrequent traveller appreciates that the full service on the WCML could never be achieved.

In BR days we had contingency plans for such eventualities, complete with traction and rolling stock diagrams that could be implemented within hours, but were normally declared the night before.

Unfortunately it appears that this has been lost with much of the good that has been thrown out by the accountants and spotty-faced teenagers who now masquerade as TOC Managers.

I would like to applaud SWT however who did run a modified service, which presumably reduced the disruption that would inevatably have occurred.

 

[Skimble19]

Communication is something severely lacking at many FCC stations today.. boards are simply displaying "Please Listen For Announcements

Call 08457 xxxxxxxxx

www.wagn.co.uk"

Slight problem, there are no announcements AT ALL (not even ones pestering you not to leave your baggage unattended) and perhaps more embarrasingly for FCC (especially when displayed above a nice big FCC sticker) wagn.co.uk doesn't even exist, just like wagn hasn't, for nearly 4 years now..!

 

[jon0844]

The driver of the, delayed, 0814 WGC to KGX service today gave information announcements regularly - explaining the broken down service on the up fast and what order the trains would proceed in - the express trains on the fast having to come over on to the slow, with us waiting because of our stopping pattern.

He also announced again for the benefit of people boarding along the way, as well as announcing the stopping pattern (delayed trains and poor information on the platform does mean many people aren't going to know what train they're actually getting on) and the next stop.

As usual, the quality of the information given comes down to the people at the front-line. Some do it with pride and deserve the highest of respect.

Any driver that didn't bother to give any info even after 20 minutes must have a good excuse. I'd say that would be not knowing themselves, but I'd question that - as they should know, or be able to find out.

Also, good customer service is often to apologise for not knowing, but giving assurances that you're trying to find out.

Communication is something severely lacking at many FCC stations today.. boards are simply displaying "Please Listen For Announcements
Call 08457 xxxxxxxxx
www.wagn.co.uk"
Slight problem, there are no announcements AT ALL (not even ones pestering you not to leave your baggage unattended) and perhaps more embarrasingly for FCC (especially when displayed above a nice big FCC sticker) wagn.co.uk doesn't even exist, just like wagn hasn't, for nearly 4 years now..!

I think the older screens have default text that was obviously entered by Wagn and not updated. This shows when the screen loses its link - but as we had a slow run in, I did happen to notice that all the screens I saw from Hatfield to Finsbury Park were working.

When there's simply no live information but the link remains, I think it then shows the correct FCC text.

I wonder if FCC is even aware of this problem? Might be something to mention to them on their next online forum?

 

[Oswyntail]

One problem is that sometimes staff are so busy trying to get trains moving again, that they forget to make service announcements. ....

Surely it would not be impossible for an announcement along the lines of "We are delayed because of xxxxx. Clearing xxxxx may take some time. As I am now off to assist in clearing xxxxx, I will not be able to make regular announcements, but, if I have the opportunity, I shall return to give you updates. In the meantime, if new passengers arrive, please could you pass this message on to them. Thank you for your assistance". This:a) lets passengers know what is happening; b) let's them know the driver is doing his best to help them; c) involves them in the solution, which is psychologically good; d) arranges for the information to be passed on to those in the dark.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But that doesn't solve the problem of the staff forgetting to make the announcement in the first place. But as I said, announcements should be made.

 

[Bill Badger]

I would like to applaud SWT however who did run a modified service, which presumably reduced the disruption that would inevatably have occurred.

I agree. Unfortunately today they started off trying to run a full service and it appears to have gone into meltdown with signalling problems and broken down trains.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

But that doesn't solve the problem of the staff forgetting to make the announcement in the first place. But as I said, announcements should be made.

What if they had no information? It doesn't happen as happened this morning where things were happening so fast you can't keep up.

Plus you may find they were short staffed and too busy to do every job and decided sorting the problem was more important than actually telling you.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well then ideally an announcement should be made saying that they had no information, but your second sentence I fully agree with.

 

[Skimble19]

I think the older screens have default text that was obviously entered by Wagn and not updated. This shows when the screen loses its link - but as we had a slow run in, I did happen to notice that all the screens I saw from Hatfield to Finsbury Park were working.

When there's simply no live information but the link remains, I think it then shows the correct FCC text.

I wonder if FCC is even aware of this problem? Might be something to mention to them on their next online forum?

Indeed, for example, the 2nd screen at the southern end of P1/2 at BIW has displayed the FCC text for at least 3 years now and no information, if they run another online form I'll mention it to them, as they've either not noticed or not bothered to fix it, although not sure when that will be as they haven't updated the website since the last one last month

 

[mintcake]

On Tuesday night South Eastern trains announced that they would be running a reduced service on Wednesday. On the breakfast news the BBC were showing clips of people interviewed on Tuesday night and one of them was saying "how can they say they are going to run a reduced service when it's not even snowing yet!"

No doubt if SET had not said anything and tried to run a normal service He would have complained.

Surely it would not be impossible for an announcement along the lines of "We are delayed because of xxxxx. Clearing xxxxx may take some time. As I am now off to assist in clearing xxxxx, I will not be able to make regular announcements, but, if I have the opportunity, I shall return to give you updates. In the meantime, if new passengers arrive, please could you pass this message on to them. Thank you for your assistance". This:a) lets passengers know what is happening; b) let's them know the driver is doing his best to help them; c) involves them in the solution, which is psychologically good; d) arranges for the information to be passed on to those in the dark.

This is a really good idea, sadly though the majority of passengers would sit on the train and not pass on the information to newly arrived passengers

 

[jopsuk]

Any driver that didn't bother to give any info even after 20 minutes must have a good excuse. I'd say that would be not knowing themselves, but I'd question that - as they should know, or be able to find out.

Also, good customer service is often to apologise for not knowing, but giving assurances that you're trying to find out.

The train had already been in the station for over twenty minutes before I boarded- I spoke to a passenger who'd been on it from a previous stop, and there'd been no information. So make that 40-45 minutes with no announcement. When I passed the cab the driver was talking to other rail staff- as the train was at platform 4, the driver was at the "station" end of the platform.

 

[jon0844]

I was at the front of 321404 this morning, and could actually hear the radio announcements the driver was getting (but he'd presumably heard that already via phone, as he'd told us what was going on BEFORE he got the public broadcast).

The information he was being given (presumably along with all other drivers) seemed very clear. I wonder how many other services had this information passed on, and how many had drivers that kept the info to themselves because they don't like doing announcements.

 

[The Box Photter]

I sat on a Class 377 unit heading northbound from St Pancras Int'l to Bedford this morning for over an hour in the tunnel north of StP Int'l as the preceding train was unable to make it out of the tunnel towards Kentish Town. During that period, there were three automated announcements saying the "delay was caused by a fault on the preceeding train" and one actual announcement by the driver saying the same thing.

There were no announcements made for over 45 mins at all, during which time it was obvious that the 377 was also developing a fault as the unit was re-set twice (once causing all the lights to go out). Eventually, some revenue protection officers on the train went forward to find out what was happenning and the upshot was that the train then reversed back into StP Int'l so that passengers could get off.

Full marks to the RP Officers for using some initiative, but less than full marks for use of the PA equipment.

 

[jon0844]

Gateline staff were out de-icing platforms this morning - at different stations than the ones they work at, so it's good to see staff mucking in and using initiative where necessary.

I think everyone should plan for delays today and tomorrow, and leave earlier as necessary or just prepare for problems. Grab a newspaper, buy a warm coffee before boarding and just sit tight.

Part of the problem is that I'm sitting in an office at Old Street and there's no snow. If you lived locally, you'd wonder what all the fuss is about. Venture out onto the railway and the fact is that you don't need to go very far for there to be LOADS of snow - and the trains that come and go are going through these areas.

Many people in London are probably of the opinion that all the snow has gone now and it's business as normal. It most certainly isn't for those commuting further than 5-10 miles outside the capital!

 

[SWT Driver]

Trying to get information out of signalboxes especially main ones like Woking & Wimbledon can be almost like getting blood out of a stone. Impossible.

In more than one instance, I've broken the rules about using a mobile in the cab, because the signaller won't answer the CSR, so I've used it to ring the 'box directly or even ring control to find out information.

The trouble is when you use that tactic, not only does it work & you get the information PDQ; The flipside of it is, it drops signaller & shift manager in brown stuff!

We as drivers can only pass on the information when WE get it ourselves & rather unfortunately our units are not yet equipped with crystal balls!

 

[jopsuk]

I appreeciate your lack of psychic powers, but (in this mornings example) the driver wasn't passing on information (such as the failed train) that I knew he had. Also, as said elsewhere in the thread, most passngers prefer to know that you don't know either, rather than being kept completely in the dark.

 

[Helvellyn]

In BR days we had contingency plans for such eventualities, complete with traction and rolling stock diagrams that could be implemented within hours, but were normally declared the night before.

Unfortunately it appears that this has been lost with much of the good that has been thrown out by the accountants and spotty-faced teenagers who now masquerade as TOC Managers.

I would like to applaud SWT however who did run a modified service, which presumably reduced the disruption that would inevatably have occurred.

And it worked on the principles of full crew working, under special diagrams, with depots working services on a specific route or set of routes.

Today though the attempt to run a normal service went horribly wrong. Bad call was made somewhere on that one.

 

[jon0844]

If staff don't know the situation, it's better to say so than to have everyone on the train assume you DO know but can't be arsed to tell anyone!

Sorry, but that's how most passengers will always see it - even if it is unjustified.

 

[Helvellyn]

If staff don't know the situation, it's better to say so than to have everyone on the train assume you DO know but can't be arsed to tell anyone!

SWT want Guards to do that. If you don't know, say so, and do it within a few minutes of the train coming to a stop.

 

[CarterUSM]

Bottom line is, information should be forthcoming, even if there is no information. Under the service quality regime imposed by transport scotland on the scotrail franchise, information must be given to passengers on-train within 3 minutes of an unscheduled stop. Failure to adhere to this is considered a breach of the relevant clause and invokes financial penalty if the set benchmark in any given period is not met. Traincrew are pulled up for this if it is not carried out as I can testify.

 

[jon0844]

Just don't go to the extreme of the Circle Line trains that give a long apology for being held at a red signal, with a pre-recorded assurance that more information will be given shortly.

This has happened to me many times where we've been stopped for about 20-30 seconds - and there's never any forthcoming explanation anyway. The red signal bit is surely adequate anyway?

Not sure if any other Tube routes have this rather silly addition to the PIS?

 

[Tom B]

The problem I have with TfL's approach to "giving passengers information" is they give the wrong sort of information. We regularly have the "good service" mantra shoveled down our throats (even when the service is up the wall). Great - I don't want to know if there's a good service, I expect things to be running well unless I'm told otherwise!

 

[Daniel]

This has happened to me many times where we've been stopped for about 20-30 seconds - and there's never any forthcoming explanation anyway. The red signal bit is surely adequate anyway?

For some reason LU has a 30 second PA rule - a PA must be made within 30 seconds of stopping at a signal...

Not sure if any other Tube routes have this rather silly addition to the PIS?

The district & circle do IIRC, all other lines have to do it manually

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Okay, but lets be fair when informative announcements ARE made. I like to thank the driver, guard or TM "for keeping us informed". Surely by being thanked sincerley, staff can feel their efforts are appreciated?

I had a nice one recently when the TM explained in some detail why we had be held concluding that the York signallers had erred. He then attributed the delay to the siggies again at ALL subsequent stops!
On another occassion (after stopping at a red for while and calling control) a driver explained that there was a track circuit fault (before proceeding past the red on caution).

I really appreciated both explanations, even if I was the only passenger who understood! So lets all encourage the practice by thanking staff when they DO communicate well.

 

[Vulcan]

As well as when a train is delayed in a station for whatever reason, It would be nice if the guard would give an announcement when trains seemingly stop in the middle of nowhere. All of us know it's just a red signal and the driver is getting out to speak to the signalman. But to the general public, the train has stopped for no obvious reason and the driver is leaving the train, whats going on? Have we hit something, Have we derailed? Has the train failed? And how long are we going to be here? A short announcement from the guards in these cases would be good to make passengers feel like valued customers, rather then just 'cargo', and well done to those guards that make the effort already.

 

[Max]

The automatic announcements at Leeds had completely broken down today and the manual announcements being made were extremely patchy. In Hull meanwhile there was mass confusion when the 1640 to Manchester Piccadilly was announced by the automatic system as cancelled. However, it was shortly reinstated on the screens - no counter announcement was made to draw attention to this though!

 

[Metroland]

Trying to get information out of signalboxes especially main ones like Woking & Wimbledon can be almost like getting blood out of a stone. Impossible.

It gets very busy that's the problem, phones going off everywhere, changed set working, timetables and so on. It's a sort of of make the service up as you go along. I'd agree though some people are not very good at passing information on, but there are no instructions, no training, no pressure or anything from Network rail to remedy the situation. Signallers are not trained to see themselves as customer service staff even though they are in these sorts of situations.

 

[tom91]

Leeds this evening was an excellent example of poor comms. The 2011 XC to Bristol was showing as delayed to 2137 but with no platform. Shortly after it was canceled. Some investigation on a certain online resource showed that it had been diverted to run non-stop between York and Sheffield.
But it seems no-one told Leeds! It didn't show as canceled until the train didn't take the Leeds line at Church Fenton, failing to report at Micklefield. The diversion must have been planned when it left York, if not before.