• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Committee on congestion and bus use

Status
Not open for further replies.

nerd

Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
524
Fascinating oral hearing of the Transport Committee on road congestion from 30th January.

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...rt-committee/urban-congestion/oral/46530.html

(OK, I'm sad; but I do get fascinated by this issue)

Most interesting is the afternoon session; with Prof. David Begg amongst others; but the morning session is also good, looking at delivery firms and Uber.

Key point from David Begg is that congestion has got dramatically worse in recent years, even in London (which has a congestion charge, and where there was no bus deregulation). He proposes that the 'equilibrium level of traffic speed' has dropped. Essentially, where access to scarce road space is free at point of use, roads tend to fill up (and hence slow down) to the point at which additional users are deterred from joining by the slow progress of traffic. Hence equilibrium traffic speed has been thought to make congestion self-limiting. But this deterrent effect from congestion is differentially much greater for private car users (especially work-related); but much less for delivery drivers/private hire cars. On the contrary. when traffic speeds fall, delivery operators add more vehicles - which makes congestion worse. Hence as work-related car use becomes more and more a minority component of urban traffic - and other users (delivery, private hire, and domestic) increase - so traffic speeds drop, reducing bus service speeds.

As may be expected, Begg is challenged by Graham Stringer, who argues that congestion problems are all due to deregulation and bus lane creation. Stringer argues that bus lanes and guided busways favour the privatised bus operators at the expense of general road users; and that they facilitate those users concentrating their operations on a reduced network of highly profitable routes at the expense of the wider network; which forces travellers reluctantly to use cars rather than buses.

Clive Efford: I want to go back to Professor Begg’s point about occupancy rates—that if you just put it up 0.1%, it would deal with congestion. If I have got it right, from everything we are told, what is finite is road space. If you create any space on the road, something will come in and fill it. Even if we got occupancy rates up, we would get more van deliveries or something. What consolidates that gain of increasing occupancy to stop it all just being infilled?

Professor Begg: This is language that has not been used for 10 years. When we had the transport innovation fund 10 years ago and the Government were talking about road pricing being a case of when and not if, we always said that anything we could do to reduce traffic and improve traffic flow in a given corridor would have to lock in the benefits, otherwise you are right and the roads fill up and we go back down to an equilibrium level of traffic.
What has changed over that time period is this. We always thought the equilibrium level of traffic speed was higher than we found it to be. We have gone to a level of traffic speed at equilibrium level in London that is much lower than most people would have anticipated. I suspect that is because of the two categories of vehicle that are increasing exponentially, which are private hire vehicles(Uber-fed), and vans. Their commercial model will not allow them to take vehicles off the road, whereas motorists will disappear. What has happened is that the equilibrium traffic speed has dropped. Motorists have said, “I’m not going to travel; I’ve had enough.” That is why we have fewer cars on the road. The other categories of vehicle are not dissuaded. In fact, as we heard in the previous session, there are actually more of them, to deal with the inefficiency due to traffic congestion.

Also interesting that Kevin O'Connor of Arriva plugs guided busways as particularly effective in increasing attractiveness of bus uses.

Kevin O'Connor: We have touched on bus lanes quite a bit, but I have a comment about busways. There are lots of innovative ways to give bus priority measures. There are a number of busways around the country, which I guess are an enhanced version of a bus lane but no car can travel on them. I am sure you are well aware of them. The travel speed can increase compared with the car. The increase in passenger numbers wherever a busway is introduced is in significant double digit growth, because it is just so much more attractive than using the car. The main aim is to make sure the speed is quicker by bus. Then it makes it even easier to pull people on to it.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Teflon Lettuce

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2013
Messages
1,750
I always find it a telling statistic that despite all plans and devices to speed up traffic, traffic in London is no faster than it was in the days of the horse!
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
4,780
I always find it a telling statistic that despite all plans and devices to speed up traffic, traffic in London is no faster than it was in the days of the horse!
Which is explained by the concept of "equilibrium speed".
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
I always find it a telling statistic that despite all plans and devices to speed up traffic, traffic in London is no faster than it was in the days of the horse!

Paris is getting rid of a lot of traffic lights, and they have far fewer in the first place. They have already found a general speed-up of traffic and fewer accidents (the latter admittedly from a higher base level than London).
 

Teflon Lettuce

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2013
Messages
1,750
Paris is getting rid of a lot of traffic lights, and they have far fewer in the first place. They have already found a general speed-up of traffic and fewer accidents (the latter admittedly from a higher base level than London).
Having driven tours around Paris I can honestly say that organised chaos does seem to work there... I'm not sure though that London would function with the same attitude to road space...
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
Having driven tours around Paris I can honestly say that organised chaos does seem to work there... I'm not sure though that London would function with the same attitude to road space...

I've never driven in Paris (other than in my nightmares:lol:) and I'm not advocating the abolition of traffic lights in London as a 'solution' but it just might be worth a controlled trial at half a dozen intersections, maybe at selected hours which could be varied between sites. I can only say that a roundabout I'm pretty familiar with that introduced traffic lights for the first time about eighteen months ago is now jammed at all hours, whereas it was pretty free-flowing for 22 hours per day before, and even then it was generally only one road or other that was impeded.
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
3,495
Location
Over The Hill
Having driven tours around Paris I can honestly say that organised chaos does seem to work there... I'm not sure though that London would function with the same attitude to road space...

Paris and London are really not comparable when it comes to traffic management. Remember that Paris was heavily rebuilt under a programme led by Haussmann which created many wide boulevards and eliminated many narrow streets in the process. There's never been any equivalent effort made in London though piecemeal roads like Park Lane or Westway have echoes of the Parisian policy.
 

Teflon Lettuce

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2013
Messages
1,750
Paris and London are really not comparable when it comes to traffic management. Remember that Paris was heavily rebuilt under a programme led by Haussmann which created many wide boulevards and eliminated many narrow streets in the process. There's never been any equivalent effort made in London though piecemeal roads like Park Lane or Westway have echoes of the Parisian policy.

It wasn't me that made the original comparison.... however while I don't think wholesale switching off of traffic lights would work I'm sure that there are far too many junctions in London that are light controlled.. it sure is telling how often, when a set of lights fail, certain junctions are much more free flowing... also do we REALLY need all those lights working in the dead of night? I like the system in some countries where the lights are changed overnight to flash amber on all approaches... ie proceed with care... nothing more frustrating at 3am waiting at a red light for nothing to join or cross the road you're on!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,402
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
nothing more frustrating at 3am waiting at a red light for nothing to join or cross the road you're on!

That only happens because of poor control mechanisms. It's quite possible to have traffic light junctions that use induction loops to directly respond to traffic. At night it can make sense to leave all approaches on red, and put one to green when a car approaches it.

You can, if you have separate approach lanes by direction, get quite clever - design a control mechanism that sets up routes across the junction based on the queue in each lane. Provided the routes don't conflict, e.g. you don't give a flow right one way at the same time as a general green another way, that will work much better than rotating around (but missing a phase out if the induction loop detects no demand) as tends to be the UK approach.
 
Last edited:

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
Any other European capital city with bad traffic problems?

Traffic problems exist in cities worldwide. However, in some cities bus/tram operations are relatively unaffected by traffic delays because of comprehensive priority. In some places, buses are largely kept out of the centre with bus routes terminating at metro/tram interchanges at the edge of the centre or in the suburbs, again meaning that passengers are not so badly affected by city centre traffic problems.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,402
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Traffic problems exist in cities worldwide. However, in some cities bus/tram operations are relatively unaffected by traffic delays because of comprehensive priority. In some places, buses are largely kept out of the centre with bus routes terminating at metro/tram interchanges at the edge of the centre or in the suburbs, again meaning that passengers are not so badly affected by city centre traffic problems.

Indeed - London's centre is penetrated by a huge number of bus routes, must be over a hundred. Hamburg has no more than about 15 - buses are used to take people to U- and S-Bahn stations.

The Tube is pretty full, so that wouldn't really work 100% for London, but I do think there is scope to heavily simplify what runs through central London bus-wise.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
The Tube is pretty full, so that wouldn't really work 100% for London, but I do think there is scope to heavily simplify what runs through central London bus-wise.

TfL is going through a process of central area rationalisation. London is hindered by having a separate fare system for buses so many people are travelling on the bus to save money on Tube fares. Route 25 wouldn't be anywhere near as busy as it is now if the fare wasn't cheaper than the parallel Central Line/rail line to Ilford. However, the free interchange between buses should avoid some of the problems with people waiting for direct buses simply to save money and enable duplication to be reduced without it costing more when people have to change buses as a result of route changes.
 

Teflon Lettuce

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2013
Messages
1,750
TfL is going through a process of central area rationalisation. London is hindered by having a separate fare system for buses so many people are travelling on the bus to save money on Tube fares. Route 25 wouldn't be anywhere near as busy as it is now if the fare wasn't cheaper than the parallel Central Line/rail line to Ilford. However, the free interchange between buses should avoid some of the problems with people waiting for direct buses simply to save money and enable duplication to be reduced without it costing more when people have to change buses as a result of route changes.

While I am sure that there is room for some rationalisation of services I somehow doubt that any reduction in capacity on the buses will be good for the passenger... this smacks more of an exercise in cutting costs.. after all TfL will have to live with less revenue in real terms over the next 4 years... fares are frozen and yet inflation isn't...the Mayor's policies have blown a massive hole in TfL's budgets and it needs to make savings.

As to your assertion that if more passengers would transfer to the tube from buses to complete their journeys... transfer onto what exactly? the Underground system is running at capacity for most of the day (and at many times of the day well over capacity- hence station lock outs for safety).

I also note that your assertion that curtailing routes would encourage more multi modal journeys if fares were integrated ignores one major point about public transport users in London.... the majority of people in London use some form of pass or season ticket to travel... there are very few "cash fare" payers left!
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
While I am sure that there is room for some rationalisation of services I somehow doubt that any reduction in capacity on the buses will be good for the passenger... this smacks more of an exercise in cutting costs.. after all TfL will have to live with less revenue in real terms over the next 4 years... fares are frozen and yet inflation isn't...the Mayor's policies have blown a massive hole in TfL's budgets and it needs to make savings.

As to your assertion that if more passengers would transfer to the tube from buses to complete their journeys... transfer onto what exactly? the Underground system is running at capacity for most of the day (and at many times of the day well over capacity- hence station lock outs for safety).

I also note that your assertion that curtailing routes would encourage more multi modal journeys if fares were integrated ignores one major point about public transport users in London.... the majority of people in London use some form of pass or season ticket to travel... there are very few "cash fare" payers left!

Over many years now, pay-as-you-go fares have been going up less than Travelcard fares so some people have been switching away from Travelcards as people realise they no longer need one. People who aren't price sensitive will use the fastest mode of transport available for that journey, even if it is horrendously overcrowded. There are probably not that many people using buses because the Tube is full except perhaps for short distances. Whilst there quite a few using the bus because it is cheaper. Certainly it will be interesting to see how much route 25 patronage drops when Crossrail opens.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,402
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
In central London I often choose to use the bus when not in a hurry because it's a less unpleasant experience than the Tube. Price is not much of a concern in the choice.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
Indeed - London's centre is penetrated by a huge number of bus routes, must be over a hundred. Hamburg has no more than about 15 - buses are used to take people to U- and S-Bahn stations.

The Tube is pretty full, so that wouldn't really work 100% for London, but I do think there is scope to heavily simplify what runs through central London bus-wise.

Your wish may be granted if TfL's 'consultation' on bus routes serving Oxford Street goes ahead without significant alteration. The number of bus routes and total number of buses may well fall by 40% (my calculations suggest slightly more in some places) and, of course, it won't be just Oxford and Regent Street that are impacted. Personally, I think it's being proposed for all the wrong reasons.

I don't know Hamburg or that many other European cities in any depth, but I'd be willing to bet that none of these cities, or any with at least two or three metro lines, have such an imbalance as to which areas are served by them. The London bus routes with the best frequencies and highest usage rates from the 'suburbs' are those with little or no tube penetration.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
While I am sure that there is room for some rationalisation of services I somehow doubt that any reduction in capacity on the buses will be good for the passenger... this smacks more of an exercise in cutting costs.. after all TfL will have to live with less revenue in real terms over the next 4 years... fares are frozen and yet inflation isn't...the Mayor's policies have blown a massive hole in TfL's budgets and it needs to make savings.

As to your assertion that if more passengers would transfer to the tube from buses to complete their journeys... transfer onto what exactly? the Underground system is running at capacity for most of the day (and at many times of the day well over capacity- hence station lock outs for safety).

I also note that your assertion that curtailing routes would encourage more multi modal journeys if fares were integrated ignores one major point about public transport users in London.... the majority of people in London use some form of pass or season ticket to travel... there are very few "cash fare" payers left!

I agree in large part with all of that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top