Commission

[spacehopper]

I will say it again- we aren't double glazing salesmen!

Commission doesn't factor in any revenue decision. It simply isn't worth our while. Oh I'll go around charging people for making "genuine" mistakes so I can make 0.0003% extra. Erm NO!

 

[Greenback]

I can't speak for Shrewsbury to Crewe, but I can say that between Cardiff and West Wales ticket checks are pretty constant with ATW. Only this evening I heard the guard sell the following tickets on the 1735 ex Swansea

£14.80 to somewhere (though I may have misheard)
£7.60 to Carmarthen
£5.00 to Carmarthen (railcard)
£4.60 to Llanelli

And that was in one third of a 153! Of course, the real money spinner must be the Monday morning services - there seem to be at least 8 regular weekly season buyers from gowerton, plus Llanelli, and all the unstaffed station to the west!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'll make this simple, its the 3 step rule

1.Safety
2.Performance
3.Revenue Duties

That's how it works

If we didn't then we would most likely be out of a Job!

and commision does bump up our wage packet, but with the advent of TVM's Internet etc etc we do not get anywhere near what we used to.

 

[TTI]

We have 5% but with Rent-A-Cop oops G4 practically everywhere its hard work making much (depends on the route etc.) also now due to the unfortunate demise of that young girl on the Merseyrail network we have to do the doors from the rear of the train, which seriously limits earning potential.

What "new" rule doing the doors from the rear of the train?
I've heard a rumour of this and, in fact, overheard quite a few passengers complaining about this when queueing an inordinate length of time because the guard can't get through anymore. What nonsense.
Certainly can't be realistic as TPE/Virgin/LM use door controls throughout their trains.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What "new" rule doing the doors from the rear of the train?
I've heard a rumour of this and, in fact, overheard quite a few passengers complaining about this when queueing an inordinate length of time because the guard can't get through anymore. What nonsense.
Certainly can't be realistic as TPE/Virgin/LM use door controls throughout their trains.

Northern have every right to instruct their guards to do this... And they have briefs are going around as we speak, it costs us quite abit of money but if that's they want it then that's the way it will be!

 

[Sir Topham Hat]

An ATW guard has told me they get 3% commission which is paid twice a year, in June and December.

At ATW we get 4%, paid in May and November. On average it works out at about £1,000 each time but obviously some do manage considerably more.

I don't do revenue just for the commission, I do it because that's part of my duties. Obviously every depot have their commission driven guards but I don't know of anybody that would sell an invalid or erroneous ticket just to make a few quid.

As for guards not going through between SHR and CRE, I work that line and always do! I suppose it depends if it's a flyer or not and if the barriers are on at SHR. Also a lot of guards will be booking off to go home at CRE so will no doubt want to get cashed up and away!

 

[2Dogbox]

EMT get 3.5 percent on all ticket sales. Depends what jobs you are on really as some early jobs take a lot, while there are a few late turns that take hardly anything. Its a nice extra. Under central they had a bizarre scheme where the depot had to meet s revenue target before anyone would get commission. This was set ridiculously high so depots seldom achieved it and you got paid commission of about £10 once every 6 months.

As earlier comments mentioned, LM opeates this "commission only on LM tickets" and it amounts to not getting much at all for guards on stoppers from New Street / Snow Hill.

Anyway where I am we sll go through trains regularly as we have lots of unstaffed stations, and if someone wasn't going through trains there would be a lot of annoyed passengers at ticket barriers trying to get out, and our great leaders could easily see who was not pulling thier weight from revenue reports on datasys.

 

[All Line Rover]

At ATW we get 4%, paid in May and November. On average it works out at about £1,000 each time but obviously some do manage considerably more.

I don't do revenue just for the commission, I do it because that's part of my duties. Obviously every depot have their commission driven guards but I don't know of anybody that would sell an invalid or erroneous ticket just to make a few quid.

As for guards not going through between SHR and CRE, I work that line and always do! I suppose it depends if it's a flyer or not and if the barriers are on at SHR. Also a lot of guards will be booking off to go home at CRE so will no doubt want to get cashed up and away!

This is off-topic, but every time I visit Shrewsbury the barriers are never switched on! Why did ATW bother installing them if they never use them?

And if you work the [15:30] off Manchester, you can't claim that you always check tickets. Unless you have some sort of flying mechanism!

 

[Sir Topham Hat]

This is off-topic, but every time I visit Shrewsbury the barriers are never switched on! Why did ATW bother installing them if they never use them?

And if you work the [15:30] off Manchester, you can't claim that you always check tickets. Unless you have some sort of flying mechanism!

The barriers at SHR are generally manned from 0730 - 2000 but I admit there may be days when staff shortages dictate otherwise.

As for the 1530 ex MAN I don't sign that route so not guilty!

 

[90019]

I don't consider that to be a bad thing. I have a serious problem with guards earning commission on selling tickets, as if the main reason for checking tickets is to sell tickets and earn commission, guards may be inclined to sell tickets when doing so is inappropriate. From a customer's point of view, that is very bad customer service.

Is that in case one of them pulls you up on your dodgy loophole tickets?

 

[All Line Rover]

Is that in case one of them pulls you up on your dodgy loophole tickets?

If you care to read what I said in post #30, you will see my reason.

Even though I accept that most guards are fine, a few guards will penalize customers who have made a genuine mistake, not because the guard is trying to "follow the rules," but because they want the commission.

If a guard questioned a completely valid ticket, that would be a completely different issue! And I think it's just as likely for some completely valid tickets to be questioned on TOC's where guards don't earn commission, as they are on TOC's where guards do earn commission.

 

[TTI]

Northern have every right to instruct their guards to do this... And they have briefs are going around as we speak, it costs us quite abit of money but if that's they want it then that's the way it will be!

Then why do other TOCs operate a very safe policy without resorting to knee-jerk reactions?
Only Northern stuck to the Rule Book requirement that was dropped a few years ago to stay & observe the train leave a platform from inside a train (as if they can actually observe any one train surfing from their position).
Tell me, when is the RAIB report 'in' re the James St incident, with its conclusions and recommendations?

Personally, I think its a brilliant new rule. Free trains more likely.

 

[90019]

And I think it's just as likely for some completely valid tickets to be questioned on TOC's where guards don't earn commission, as they are on TOC's where guards do earn commission.

So, you have no issue with guards earning comission on tickets they sell then, because it won't affect whether valid tickets get questioned or not.

Glad you cleared that one up.

 

[Greenback]

At ATW we get 4%, paid in May and November. On average it works out at about £1,000 each time but obviously some do manage considerably more.

I don't do revenue just for the commission, I do it because that's part of my duties. Obviously every depot have their commission driven guards but I don't know of anybody that would sell an invalid or erroneous ticket just to make a few quid.

As for guards not going through between SHR and CRE, I work that line and always do! I suppose it depends if it's a flyer or not and if the barriers are on at SHR. Also a lot of guards will be booking off to go home at CRE so will no doubt want to get cashed up and away!

I' sure you are correct - maybe my source was thinking in terms of the months he spent the commission!

 

[All Line Rover]

So, you have no issue with guards earning comission on tickets they sell then, because it won't affect whether valid tickets get questioned or not.

Glad you cleared that one up.

Why should commission dictate whether or not a guard accepts valid tickets?

The issue with commission is that some "desperate" guards (which I appreciate are in the minority, but do exist) will penalize customers who have made innocent mistakes for the sake of getting some extra commission. Pennies will add up to pounds if the guard does so on a regular basis!

 

[trentside]

The issue with commission is that some "desperate" guards (which I appreciate are in the minority, but do exist) will penalize customers who have made innocent mistakes for the sake of getting some extra commission. Pennies will add up to pounds if the guard does so on a regular basis!

Do you actually have any evidence that guards are doing this for commission?

At the end of the day, if the customer has an invalid ticket then the guard is acting correctly by charging them for a new valid ticket. I know this area can be controversial, but the guard is playing by the rules.

 

[All Line Rover]

Do you actually have any evidence that guards are doing this for commission?

At the end of the day, if the customer has an invalid ticket then the guard is acting correctly by charging them for a new valid ticket. I know this area can be controversial, but the guard is playing by the rules.

I have witnessed it a few times, and there have been numerous "horror stories" mentioned on this forum. Whilst I am not claiming that rules are there to be broken, always "playing by the rules" does not lead to customer satisfaction and subsequent customer retention.

On TOC's where guards do not earn commission, guards are likely to be less biased and more likely to be reasonable. I'm not saying that guards who earn commission do the opposite! But I don't think it helps.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yet it wasn't so long ago ALR was threatening to report guards who did allow passengers to travel on technically invalid tickets in the name of customer service because he didn't like it.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yet it wasn't so long ago ALR was threatening to report guards who did allow passengers to travel on technically invalid tickets in the name of customer service because he didn't like it.

I've changed my mind on that. When I am very suspicious that someone is trying to fare-dodge, I will report that person to a member of station staff or the BTP (intentional fare evasion) rather than report the guard.

I detest fare-evaders - not kindly guards!

EDIT: Before someone claims otherwise, I am a fare-avoider, not a fare-evader.

 

[trentside]

I have witnessed it a few times, and there have been numerous "horror stories" mentioned on this forum. Whilst I am not claiming that rules are there to be broken, always "playing by the rules" does not lead to customer satisfaction and subsequent customer retention.

On TOC's where guards do not earn commission, guards are likely to be less biased and more likely to be reasonable. I'm not saying that guards who earn commission do the opposite! But I don't think it helps.

I'm not denying that sticking to the rules can cause upset to passengers. I am saying that I don't believe that a desire to stick to the rules is motivated by commission, more a desire not to get into hot water with an employer by letting a customer travel on an invalid ticket.

 

[Sir Topham Hat]

Only Northern stuck to the Rule Book requirement that was dropped a few years ago to stay & observe the train leave a platform from inside a train (as if they can actually observe any one train surfing from their position).

ATW also require us to remain at the door until we've left the platform.

 

[Pumbaa]

On TOC's where guards do not earn commission, guards are likely to be less biased and more likely to be reasonable.

Proof?*

*Your opinion is not proof.

 

[All Line Rover]

Proof?*

*Your opinion is not proof.

Can you provide proof to the contrary?

My "proof" is my experience. I'd be very interested to see a published report on the links between railway guards, commission and bias!

 

[Minilad]

Can you provide proof to the contrary?

My "proof" is my experience. I'd be very interested to see a published report on the links between railway guards, commission and bias!

So are you saying you have witnessed a guard selling a more expensive ticket than necessary and actually telling you he has done it because he would get more commission ?

 

[90019]

Can you provide proof to the contrary?

You're trying to make a point, so the onus is on you to provide the proof to back up your claims.
Which, unsurprisingly, you have yet to do.

My "proof" is my experience.

Which isn't proof.
When you have actual evidence, not rhetoric, then you have an argument. Until that point, it's nothing more than an opinion.

 

[All Line Rover]

Which isn't proof.
When you have actual evidence, not rhetoric, then you have an argument. Until that point, it's nothing more than an opinion.

Experience is evidence - experience is not rhetoric.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So are you saying you have witnessed a guard selling a more expensive ticket than necessary and actually telling you he has done it because he would get more commission ?

I doubt I would ever witness that. All I can say is that I have seen a few guards on TOC's where commission is earned being quite unreasonable, whereas I have never experienced this on TOC's where commission is not earned.

Could this be pure coincidence? Most likely! But if someone could prove to me that earning commission does not encourage bias, I'd like to see such evidence. I haven't seen such evidence for any other type of job where commission is earned.

I'm not saying that commission on the railways is terrible and MUST be removed, but in my opinion it would be better if it didn't exist. (Now that's an opinion! )

 

[Minilad]

Experience is evidence - experience is not rhetoric.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I doubt I would ever witness that. All I can say is that I have seen a few guards on TOC's where commission is earned being quite unreasonable, whereas I have never experienced this on TOC's where commission is not earned.

Could this be pure coincidence? Most likely! But if someone could prove to me that earning commission does not encourage bias, I'd like to see such evidence. I haven't seen such evidence for any other type of job where commission is earned.

I'm not saying that commission on the railways is terrible and MUST be removed, but in my opinion it would be better if it didn't exist. (Now that's an opinion! )

Then if you have never witnessed that it means it is your opinion. Opinion is not evidence. When I go in on Monday I will ask as many TMs as I can what they think of your opinion. I will let you know the results

 

[scotsman]

Ok, ALR, let's take this at face value.

Let's say that passenger x is offered a ticket at £13.90 (1) instead of a cheaper one at £9.70 (2)

Commission on (1): £0.69.5
Commission on (2): £0.48.5

Difference = £0.21

I don't see it...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Experience is evidence - experience is not rhetoric.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I doubt I would ever witness that. All I can say is that I have seen a few guards on TOC's where commission is earned being quite unreasonable, whereas I have never experienced this on TOC's where commission is not earned.

Could this be pure coincidence? Most likely! But if someone could prove to me that earning commission does not encourage bias, I'd like to see such evidence. I haven't seen such evidence for any other type of job where commission is earned.

I'm not saying that commission on the railways is terrible and MUST be removed, but in my opinion it would be better if it didn't exist. (Now that's an opinion! )

I actually find that quite insulting!

What you are saying is totally untrue and not accurate in the slightest, No guard is going to risk their job for a few pence, to say so is ridiculous and an insult to 99.9% of Conductors

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Experience is evidence - experience is not rhetoric.

Experience is rhetoric. Evidence is a properly conducted quantative experiment to see if what you say is true (I doubt it!).