Combining tickets

[strowger]

Hi,

This is my first post here, although I've been reading for a few months, so please be gentle.

I'm interested in the opinions of the experts here about the use and misuse of Condition of Carriage 19 - combining tickets. I'm not sure whether it's OK to post full journey details when a loophole might have been found, so I'll write here in general terms - although I do have a specific journey in mind, and the savings possible appear to be substantial.

I want to travel a long way, from A to J, and then return in the evening. Both outbound and return trains are at peak times.The train I'll take in the morning travels from A to J via (but not stopping at) B,C,D,E,F,G,H & I; the return is similar.

A standard open return from A to J costs about £100. I'm not (for the moment) interested in advance purchase tickets.

I can buy a weekly season from A to B, and then separate day return tickets from B-C,C-D,D-E (etc), for about £80.

My reading of CoC 19c is that this is permitted, even though the train does not stop at any of the intermediate stations, because I can use any number ("two or more") of tickets in this way so long as one of them is a season.

Do forum members agree with me?

I'm familiar with (and somewhat in awe of) RJ & his posts; I'm prepared to calmly and assertively argue my corner, but there are some journeys (eg when I have my children with me) on which it would not be worth doing if aggressive treatment by rail staff is likely.

Is this course of action likely to lead to much hassle on-train from conductors?

Does it matter whether the ToC concerned has *any* trains *at all* which call at the intermediate stations? I understand CoC 10 means that if a ticket is restricted to another ToC, or barred from mine, then it's no good. Again I have a specific example in mind but I'm not sure whether to give it here, so here we go with examples:

ShinyRail Ltd operate trains from N to Q and miss out the intermediate stations O and P. ShabbyRail Ltd operate stopping trains that go N-O-P-Q.

Both operate along the same stretch of track - I'm not (for now) interested in any routing issues

If I buy a season from N-O and then singles O-P and P-Q, can I use a ShinyRail Ltd train even though ShinyRail Ltd *never* call at O and P?

 

[bb21]

Do forum members agree with me?

Yes.

Is this course of action likely to lead to much hassle on-train from conductors?

Yes, especially if they think that you are taking the pee, but nonetheless it is still permitted under the current wording of Condition 19.

Does it matter whether the ToC concerned has *any* trains *at all* which call at the intermediate stations? I understand CoC 10 means that if a ticket is restricted to another ToC, or barred from mine, then it's no good. Again I have a specific example in mind but I'm not sure whether to give it here, so here we go with examples:

Condition 10 states that any such restriction should be displayed on the ticket. If your ticket has no operator restriction, then you are permitted to use the service of any train company listed in Appendix C of the NRCoC, as long as you are on a permitted route.

 

[maniacmartin]

What you are proposing is perfectly valid under section 19C of the NRCoC. Expect hassle from staff if your ticket is checked on board however.

It doesn't matter which operators stop at the stations, as long as you don't buy tickets routed "FCC ONLY" or similar. E.g. if you wanted to travel on the West Coast Mainline, you could travel on Virgin with exactly one season and a string of non-seasons between stations that only London Midland call at.

 

[strowger]

Thank you (both) for replying so quickly.

This is a truly fascinating area.

Yes, especially if they think that you are taking the pee, but nonetheless it is still permitted under the current wording of Condition 19.

How bad is this likely to be? I'm not stupid enough to lose my rag and get arrested for assault, but presumably the end result is either I pay a (very substantial) amount for another ticket, or the ToC will attempt to prosecute?

If I carry proof of ID are they likely to accept that and send me rude letters, or is there a real risk of the police being called & arresting me at the destination (which is large and well-endowed with police)?

Presumably it's likely that my ticket will be withdrawn and a Travel Irregularity Report raised. If that's on the outgoing journey, I'm then left without my ticket home - what's it best to do about that?

How does this escalate if I repeatedly make the same journey?

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum I hope you don't mind but here's a copy & paste from a post I made on 24 March 2013 (and again on 26 June 2013):

...That is a valid combination, as described in the NRCoC, Condition 19(c).

www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf:

....one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

If you wish to combine "two or more" tickets for one journey you only need to comply with one of Condition 19(a) or 19(b) or 19(c).

So, as you comply with 19(c) then Condition 19 is fully satisfied. ie, there is no additional requirement for the train to call as described in 19(b).

If the guard was unfamiliar with 19(c) and attempted to charge a new ticket or excess fare, I would express surprise at that course of action and ask if the guard could check the wording of 19(c).

​

For sensibly priced routes, it does not make the journey cheaper. Indeed for most journeys it wouldn't make sense, nor should it. But on some routes, with bonkers fares, it can make a huge difference, such as Manchester - London.

For example I heard a while back that sales of Season tickets from Manchester to Stockport, and Anytime returns between random minor stations on the WCML are up.

Virgin Trains and EMT reportedly attempted to get the rules changed, but the DfT refused, reportedly leaving those TOCs absolutely fuming. I have no sympathy: it's their own fault for having ludicrous pricing structures.

 

[RJ]

I concur - it's a sound understanding of the condition.

That said, travelling with a valid ticket or set of tickets only means you can't be prosecuted for fare evasion - though up until that point, all kinds of fun and games can be expected. I tend to hold off creative ticketing when travelling with family and friends - well except for those friends who are also on it!

 

[bnm]

Creative use of NRCoC 19(c) can give rise to substantial savings. There's one routing on which I use such creativity regularly. Response from on train staff has varied from:

"Nice one, well done for working that out"

"Not sure that's allowed, but I'll take your word for it"

"Not sure that's right, I'll check" (TM never came back)

"You can't do that (tap tap tap on Avantix), you'll need to pay x pounds" (I took a UFN and later had it cancelled)

"That's illegal. If you don't buy the correct fare I'll have to ask you to leave at the next station" (I left. Seeing as I was changing at the next station anyway)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I will add my own confirmation that the combination of tickets you propose will be valid.

I would like to add that there appears to be a very large number of train Guards whose duties include on-board inspections and who are conversant with the Conditions and will be happy to accept 'split tickets'. This is less true of barrier staff, but they should not normally see any more than the one ticket which is relevant to the station at either end of your journey.

Where you may be disappointed is when you wish to claim any compensation for delays or alternative arrangements following delays or cancellations. Most Rail Companies have a record of attempting to minimise their exposure to liabilties, and if they can restrict their compensation or alternative arrangements to holders of multiple tickets, then they will. Instead of "agressive treatment" on-board, you may face frustrating arguments by post or email!
On journeys prone to disruption, this cost might eliminate any saving.

 

[strowger]

Many thanks, all.

I am emboldened...!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Followup question.

Going back to my original example:

I travel A to J. My train departs at peak time and travels from A to J via (but not stopping at) B,C,D,E,F,G,H & I.

Obviously my A-B season is valid at any time of day, and my B-C single needs to be valid in the peak as things look to me.

But, by the time the train passes C, we're no longer in the peak period; an off-peak single from C-D would be valid for a C-D journey at the time the train passes C & D. There is a cheaper off-peak fare available for C-D, as well as the anytime fare.

Do I still need a standard (anytime) ticket for C-D?

The restrictions on off-peak tickets are expressed in *many* different forms, some of which involve the arrival time at the terminal station (J), others in terms of departure time from C.

 

[All Line Rover]

I would be inclined to guess you want to travel with Virgin Trains. 'ShinyRail' (VT) and 'ShabbyRail' (LM), a wide variety of restriction codes - rings a few bells.

In answer to your question, I will provide an example. A Rugby to Milton Keynes Off-Peak Day Return, valid at or after 0900, is valid on any Virgin Train passing through Rugby at or after 0900 (when accompanied by other suitable tickets, of course), whether or not the train stops at Rugby, Milton Keynes, or any intermediate stations. Hopefully you can alter this example to cover the tickets you plan on purchasing.

 

[strowger]

Thank you, ALR.

I'm not going to comment on which TOCs are involved just now as that could lead on to a guessing game which reveals all.

I guess the principle, though, is that if one of my intermediate tickets' validity requires it to depart an intermediate station at a certain time - then I need to check the working time-table for the train in question to find out when it passes the station?!

I'm not doubting your answer, but I'd like to understand my legal ground here so that I can defend myself when challenged; is there any precedent which establishes this rule? Is it in the CoC or bylaws somewhere?

 

[yorkie]

But, by the time the train passes C, we're no longer in the peak period; an off-peak single from C-D would be valid for a C-D journey at the time the train passes C & D. There is a cheaper off-peak fare available for C-D, as well as the anytime fare.

Do I still need a standard (anytime) ticket for C-D?

The restrictions on off-peak tickets are expressed in *many* different forms, some of which involve the arrival time at the terminal station (J), others in terms of departure time from C.

I think you know what I am going to say....

Yes, it depends on how exactly the condition is worded.

Sometimes they are worded in such a way that causes difficulty to make an interpretation because they are not worded with 'split ticketing' in mind.

If the price difference between the off peak & anytime tickets is not great, and if the restriction is not clear, then purchasing an anytime for that portion of the journey may be the best course of action as it couldreduce the possibilities of a dispute and reduce the possibilities of the TOC arguing the ticket is invalid.

But without knowing the details, I couldn't say.

 

[maniacmartin]

As yorkie says, you will have to look up the restriction code for every ticket.

Some just have a restriction on the time you can travel, which you can use.

Others restrict trains "timeed to arrive/depart" from certain stations at certain times. In that case, you will have to work out if the trains you intend to catch are timed at those stations at the peak times that the ticket defines.