Combining Irish preservation

[102 fan]

I was reading the thread about the ITG railtours, and I was wondering if the solution to the problem would be a merger of the DCDR/RPSI/ITG?

 

[4SRKT]

If such a thing were possible it would certainly combine all the skills and drive of these organisations into one group with more clout. My worry would be the RPSI would be the dominant membership and diesel enthusiasts may not find themselves well served. Having said that the best way to change the RPSI's attitude to diesels (which seems slowly to be evolving of its own accord TBF) may be from within.

To my mind the biggest problem facing the small Irish preservation scene is lack of a decent base. Whitehead must be close to being full (although some 'exhibits' could surely be moved to Cultra, if indeed there is any room there). What happened to the RPSI base at Mullingar BTW? The ITG has known difficulties getting anywhere to put its stuff, and Downpatrick is not main line connected. A merger could leave almost the whole scene based in Northern Ireland, and its hard to see how a merger between the RPSI and DCDR could make any difference operationally given the two entirely different operations of the two organisations. Such a pity that Downpatrick to Ardglass was picked. I recall an RPSI proposal to reopen Scarva to Banbridge for preservation, which would have been much better IYAM. Better still now a portion of the Antrim > Lisburn line, but I guess too much has been sunk into Downpatrick to make this happen now.

 

[GM078]

Hmmm an interesting thought, why would you think it would be a solution to the problems? (Just curious, not saying it's a good or bad idea).

If such a thing were possible it would certainly combine all the skills and drive of these organisations into one group with more clout. My worry would be the RPSI would be the dominant membership and diesel enthusiasts may not find themselves well served. Having said that the best way to change the RPSI's attitude to diesels (which seems slowly to be evolving of its own accord TBF) may be from within.

The skills merger would be a plus indeed. However, even if such a merger was to take place, I would imagine that the steam would still get a higher proportion of focus, simply because it brings in the money, and at that, only the steam engines suitable for mainline running (although I would hazzard a guess that a 141 class diesel would be given preference over the likes of the SLNCR 0-6-4T, a gangwayed carriage over a non-corridor one, etc, for obvious reasons). Incidentally I think the change of attitude by the RPSI is mainly down to the fact that outside people offered their time and/or money to preserve and maintain examples of the BGM fleet.

To my mind the biggest problem facing the small Irish preservation scene is lack of a decent base. Whitehead must be close to being full (although some 'exhibits' could surely be moved to Cultra, if indeed there is any room there). What happened to the RPSI base at Mullingar BTW?

Still there, BR van 3173 is currently being overhauled there. It's strictly a maintainence/restoration facility as opposed to visitor center though. Other carriages overhauled there in recent years have included 1419, 1522 and 1514.

There was a proposal years ago to develop a national transport museum at Mullingar (ideal as it could facilitate rail, road and canal transport), but that died a death, sadly if it doesn't involve ancient sites or the struggle for independence it's not heritage in the eyes of the Irish government.

The ITG has known difficulties getting anywhere to put its stuff, and Downpatrick is not main line connected. A merger could leave almost the whole scene based in Northern Ireland, and its hard to see how a merger between the RPSI and DCDR could make any difference operationally given the two entirely different operations of the two organisations.

That would be my thought, I can't really see the point in merging the DCDR with the others. Not saying it would be a bad thing, but I just don't see the need for it. To be honest, the ITG have probably some advantages in running some of their stock at DCDR, it gets far more use than it ever would have on the mainline. They ran four mainline tours with their A/001 class locos in 1999, and passenger numbers dwindled down to the point that the insurance wasn't sustainable.

 

[PFX]

It would indeed be interesting and who knows, perhaps even successful. The financial benefits could well be there as would be strength in numbers I suppose.

On the other hand, is a 'nationalised' preservation group likely to pander to the wide and varied tastes of particular groups of enthusiasts? Perhaps the smaller groups being amalgamated into one larger one would be to the detriment of certain areas of preservation work. The operating base would also have to be based at a fairly large site in order to bring collections together, this being a massive expenditure along with transport of stock.

Maybe that Euromillions win I'm due will finally happen...

 

[Cyberbeagle]

If such a thing were possible it would certainly combine all the skills and drive of these organisations into one group with more clout. My worry would be the RPSI would be the dominant membership and diesel enthusiasts may not find themselves well served. Having said that the best way to change the RPSI's attitude to diesels (which seems slowly to be evolving of its own accord TBF) may be from within.

To my mind the biggest problem facing the small Irish preservation scene is lack of a decent base. Whitehead must be close to being full (although some 'exhibits' could surely be moved to Cultra, if indeed there is any room there). What happened to the RPSI base at Mullingar BTW? The ITG has known difficulties getting anywhere to put its stuff, and Downpatrick is not main line connected. A merger could leave almost the whole scene based in Northern Ireland, and its hard to see how a merger between the RPSI and DCDR could make any difference operationally given the two entirely different operations of the two organisations. Such a pity that Downpatrick to Ardglass was picked. I recall an RPSI proposal to reopen Scarva to Banbridge for preservation, which would have been much better IYAM. Better still now a portion of the Antrim > Lisburn line, but I guess too much has been sunk into Downpatrick to make this happen now.

Interesting viewpoints... except that Lisburn-Antrim as a preserved line is NEVER going to happen, Mal McGreevy has made it clear that the line will reopen as part of the NIR network at some point.

Strange that you would think that the one Irish Standard Guage success story in Ireland was "a pity". Scarva to Banbridge was scuppered because the landowner refused to sell the land, and without the support of the local authority (or support in any meaningful way) it couldn't happen. Downpatrick had a huge amount (comparatively, given the piecemeal way trackbeds were sold off in Northern Ireland) of land and a willing and enthusiastic landowner.

Main line connection is really a bit of a red herring in this day and age for stock transfers, most of which have to go by road anyway.

But Downpatrick, RPSI, ITG and UFTM do work closely, and I think we can expect that relationship to develop as the years progress.

 

[4SRKT]

Interesting viewpoints... except that Lisburn-Antrim as a preserved line is NEVER going to happen, Mal McGreevy has made it clear that the line will reopen as part of the NIR network at some point.

Strange that you would think that the one Irish Standard Guage success story in Ireland was "a pity". Scarva to Banbridge was scuppered because the landowner refused to sell the land, and without the support of the local authority (or support in any meaningful way) it couldn't happen. Downpatrick had a huge amount (comparatively, given the piecemeal way trackbeds were sold off in Northern Ireland) of land and a willing and enthusiastic landowner.

Main line connection is really a bit of a red herring in this day and age for stock transfers, most of which have to go by road anyway.

But Downpatrick, RPSI, ITG and UFTM do work closely, and I think we can expect that relationship to develop as the years progress.

TBH I think Mal McGreevy is for the birds in this respect. What useful function could it serve?

By 'a pity' I really only meant that Scarva > Banbridge would have been better in a number of respects had it been possible to get it off the ground. Since it wasn't possible then it's not a pity that Downpatrick exists. The main line connection would be useful for running railtours off a preserved site, like at Whitehead, or when the ELR/CFPS start tours at Rawtenstall.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

TBH I think Mal McGreevy is for the birds in this respect. What useful function could it serve?

By 'a pity' I really only meant that Scarva > Banbridge would have been better in a number of respects had it been possible to get it off the ground. Since it wasn't possible then it's not a pity that Downpatrick exists. The main line connection would be useful for running railtours off a preserved site, like at Whitehead, or when the ELR/CFPS start tours at Rawtenstall.

Well, since he's GM of NIR I would assume he knows what he's talking about... off the top of my head you could deduce the following:

(1) Serving the growing commuter town of Crumlin, as well as Glenavy and Ballinderry
(2) A spur serving the International Airport
(3) Splitting Derry services between Bleach Green and Crumlin increasing capacity on the Derry line, given the well known bottlenecks at the Dargan viaduct and the singles Bleach Green line. While Mal wants the line redoubled again, this will take time and funds.

So from a strategic POV there's still a lot going for the Crumlin line.

 

[4SRKT]

Crumlin to Belfast via either Antrim or Lisburn is just a non-starter compared with a good bus via the Crumlin Road or M2. It's too far round. I can see the airport (possibly) being a go-er, but this would have to be a frequent service to be usuable, and it's a hell of a long way on single track from Lisburn to Aldergrove, even further from Monkstown to Aldergrove if you routed it via Antrim. Even if an airport link were installed, it would still leave a portion of the section redundant.

Derry services are uncompetitive enough with the Goldline as it is. Sending some of them round via Crumlin will only make this worse. Let's face it the GN line only survived because otherwise the NCC system (and crucially York Road works) would have been totally isolated from the rest of Ireland's railways. Now that that's all addressed it's a white elephant. Surely higher priorities must included looking at reopening to Armagh, redoubling Monkstown > Ballymena etc.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Crumlin to Belfast via either Antrim or Lisburn is just a non-starter compared with a good bus via the Crumlin Road or M2. It's too far round. I can see the airport (possibly) being a go-er, but this would have to be a frequent service to be usuable, and it's a hell of a long way on single track from Lisburn to Aldergrove, even further from Monkstown to Aldergrove if you routed it via Antrim. Even if an airport link were installed, it would still leave a portion of the section redundant.

Derry services are uncompetitive enough with the Goldline as it is. Sending some of them round via Crumlin will only make this worse. Let's face it the GN line only survived because otherwise the NCC system (and crucially York Road works) would have been totally isolated from the rest of Ireland's railways. Now that that's all addressed it's a white elephant. Surely higher priorities must included looking at reopening to Armagh, redoubling Monkstown > Ballymena etc.

I can see what you mean, but it's also important to recognise the different demographics of those people who tend to use the train over those who use the bus. Typically if a rail service is withdrawn those passengers tend to move to the car, and not the buses. It's a different market, and it's a mistake transport officials in the DRD have to be reminded of again and again: putting on a bus doesn't get people out of car, but a good rail service does.

And actually, Armagh isn't that big a town, again according to Translink's 30 year vision Dungannon is a much more likely candidate for potential reopening, followed by Armagh. But wait! Surely with the M1 there they don't need it... I hear you shout???

But Antrim-Lisburn will open first - the infrastructure is still there and in remarkably good condition. Perhaps you'll be travelling on it for the 450 Farewell?

 

[4SRKT]

And actually, Armagh isn't that big a town, again according to Translink's 30 year vision Dungannon is a much more likely candidate for potential reopening, followed by Armagh. But wait! Surely with the M1 there they don't need it... I hear you shout???

It's not that the M2 means people near it don't need the railway. I can see Dungannon (and Armagh) being sensible links because the railway could compete with the M1. From Crumlin the railway doesn't go towards Belfast in either direction, so the road is better for that journey.

 

[PFX]

If Mal McGreevy is talking of opening the Crumlin line, this is distinctly at odds with what NIR tell those 'good' people in the house on the hill. The story there is that the cost involved in doing so is just too great. Whether or not this is the case, I don't know.

The airport spur, as with city airport also gets a quite different spin, the official line being that the demand isn't there so it's not economical and that both are served by good bus services therefore aren't required anyway.

Personally, I think rail/air links would be most welcome and it's very much a case of build it and they will come. Certainly in the case of Aldergrove.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

If Mal McGreevy is talking of opening the Crumlin line, this is distinctly at odds with what NIR tell those 'good' people in the house on the hill. The story there is that the cost involved in doing so is just too great. Whether or not this is the case, I don't know.

The airport spur, as with city airport also gets a quite different spin, the official line being that the demand isn't there so it's not economical and that both are served by good bus services therefore aren't required anyway.

Personally, I think rail/air links would be most welcome and it's very much a case of build it and they will come. Certainly in the case of Aldergrove.

Well, at present... we're talking before 2015 at least before there's any movement in that direction. All of NIR's resources are probably going towards the Derry line and securing its future. Crumlin comes a poor second, but it has not been forgotten about. The recent diversions along this route basically showed how good a condition it is actually still in.

Likewise the City Airport is probably close to the point where a station will be justifiable, but not yet. And apparently the Airport were allegedly the ones who didn't want it when the new terminus was built (car park revenue). A spur is a non-starter apparently, two platforms and a airbridge across into the terminus building is what is needed. At the meeting about a month ago where this was spelled out he did say that Aldergrove is probably a fair bit off and yes he would have scepticism about the spur and the frequency of the service, probably only being every 30mins. But given it's Aldergrove, I would've thought that would've been probably just about right!

 

[PFX]

Yes, I'd heard about the carpark revenue argument at City. I just forgot to mention it but on a recent visit to the airport, it was certainly stated. I also agree that given the frequency of flights at Aldergrove, a half hourly service would be more than adequate, given the bus service runs between 15 and 30 minute frequencies, often half empty.

I reckon this thread is starting to stray somewhat OT now. Not that I'm complaining.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Yes, I'd heard about the carpark revenue argument at City. I just forgot to mention it but on a recent visit to the airport, it was certainly stated. I also agree that given the frequency of flights at Aldergrove, a half hourly service would be more than adequate, given the bus service runs between 15 and 30 minute frequencies, often half empty.

I reckon this thread is starting to stray somewhat OT now. Not that I'm complaining.

Quite a bit off topic!!

Anyway, the suggestion is that the City Airport is nearly at capacity in regards carparking, to the point it could start to harm its business rather than add to it. At that point their position over a rail halt could change.

Sydenham would apparently stay open, and when you come to think about it, the new halt would be virtually at the same location as the old Tillysburn Halt back in BCDR days.

 

[PFX]

Could the reopening of Tillysburn be an argument for connecting DCDR back to the network? Only messing, don't answer that one.

If there were two halts not much more than a few train lenghts apart, I'd imagine that the Bangor express would be the one to stop at the airport and stopping services miss it out. Pure conjecture given the cost of building a new halt, bridge, signalling, etc.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Could the reopening of Tillysburn be an argument for connecting DCDR back to the network? Only messing, don't answer that one.

Och let me!!

There's a guy I know of who I'm sure would think that wouldn't be a problem, and that work will start "imminently". You know who I mean...

 

[PFX]

Och let me!!

There's a guy I know of who I'm sure would think that wouldn't be a problem, and that work will start "imminently". You know who I mean...

Arf, arf. Yes indeed.