Combination of ranger + return ticket: train routeing query

[ABB125]

Suppose that, on Monday, I wanted to travel between Crewe and Milton Keynes. Not for any particular reason, nothing to do with any unusual trains which may or may not be running.

Suppose that I wished to use a West Midlands Day Ranger, plus an additional return ticket, in order to carry out my journey. The West Midlands Day Ranger is valid as far south as Northampton. Therefore, according to Section 14 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, I could use a Northampton-Milton Keynes ticket, even if my desired train doesn't call at Northampton.

Does this still apply if the train I take goes direct between Rugby and Milton Keynes (ie: doesn't go via the Northampton loop)? Or would I have to buy a slightly more expensive Rugby-Milton Keynes ticket (which is valid via both routes)?

Bear in mind that as an ignorant passenger with no knowledge of the rail network (), I have no idea what route the train might take. All I know (as far as the railway is concerned) is that it calls at Rugby, then Milton Keynes.

Thanks

 

[Haywain]

If you don’t want to go via Northampton buy a ticket to Rugby.

 

[Watershed]

Suppose that, on Monday, I wanted to travel between Crewe and Milton Keynes. Not for any particular reason, nothing to do with any unusual trains which may or may not be running.

Suppose that I wished to use a West Midlands Day Ranger, plus an additional return ticket, in order to carry out my journey. The West Midlands Day Ranger is valid as far south as Northampton. Therefore, according to Section 14 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, I could use a Northampton-Milton Keynes ticket, even if my desired train doesn't call at Northampton.

Does this still apply if the train I take goes direct between Rugby and Milton Keynes (ie: doesn't go via the Northampton loop)? Or would I have to buy a slightly more expensive Rugby-Milton Keynes ticket (which is valid via both routes)?

Bear in mind that as an ignorant passenger with no knowledge of the rail network (), I have no idea what route the train might take. All I know (as far as the railway is concerned) is that it calls at Rugby, then Milton Keynes.

Thanks

When undertaking a non-stop split, you don't necessarily have to pass through the station which your ticket is valid to/from - you can start late or finish short if you want. But you must have a valid ticket at all points in your journey and here is where you are going to have problems avoiding Northampton whilst splitting there. Tickets from Northampton to Milton Keynes are only valid direct, not via Rugby, and your Ranger is only valid as far as Northampton. So you don't have a ticket that covers Rugby to Wolverton.

Obviously the fact there are no stations via Weedon doesn't help illustrate the point, but it's fundamentally no different to having Crewe to Shrewsbury and Shrewsbury to Hereford tickets and then using that via Birmingham.

 

[ABB125]

Ok, that's kind of what I was expecting, but playing devil's advocate:

I have a ticket which covers RUG-NMP and a ticket which covers NMP-MKC. Therefore I have a valid combination for RUG-MKC. As it says in Condition 14, the train does not need to stop at the split station. So, surely it shouldn't matter whether the train actually goes via NMP? The Weedon route is effectively a pair of fast lines that doesn't quite follow the same route as the line through NMP. I have a ticket combination which covers RUG-MKC, the train calls at RUG and MKC and nowhere else. What would happen if a (non-stop) via NMP train was diverted via Weedon? Would I no longer have a valid ticket for it? What about a Weedon train diverted via NMP? To me, there seems to be a bit of logical dissonance here (although I accept it's a very niche example, possibly the only other place where this scenario might occur is around Redhill?).

 

[yorkie]

It does matter; the easement allowing the train to run non-stop does not allow the train to take a different route.

The chances of the tickets being checked is incredibly slim; even if they were checked it is very possible it would be accepted, under a common sense approach. But is it actually valid? Technically no it isn't.

If the train was diverted via NMP then yes you'd be valid.

I don't see how Redhill is any different either.

 

[Watershed]

Ok, that's kind of what I was expecting, but playing devil's advocate:

I have a ticket which covers RUG-NMP and a ticket which covers NMP-MKC. Therefore I have a valid combination for RUG-MKC. As it says in Condition 14, the train does not need to stop at the split station. So, surely it shouldn't matter whether the train actually goes via NMP? The Weedon route is effectively a pair of fast lines that doesn't quite follow the same route as the line through NMP. I have a ticket combination which covers RUG-MKC, the train calls at RUG and MKC and nowhere else. What would happen if a (non-stop) via NMP train was diverted via Weedon? Would I no longer have a valid ticket for it? What about a Weedon train diverted via NMP? To me, there seems to be a bit of logical dissonance here (although I accept it's a very niche example, possibly the only other place where this scenario might occur is around Redhill?).

You have a valid combination for RUG-MKC - but it doesn't cover all possible routes between the two stations. It only covers those passing through NMP. The same as a CRE-SHR-HFD split doesn't cover CRE-BHM-HFD, even though both are ways of getting from CRE-HFD.

The effective purpose of the Weedon route doesn't change the validity of tickets. The GNGE is effectively a loop off the ECML but that doesn't mean that a Peterborough to Grantham ticket is valid via Sleaford!

If your train was unexpectedly diverted via NMP then you would be valid. You would be taking rather a gamble on this happening though!

For the converse - a train that's booked via NMP but runs via Weedon - you would also be valid as the Routeing Guide explicitly says that tickets remain valid where trains are diverted from their normal routes:

Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at. This does not apply to additional stops on the diversionary route, unless specially advised or they are on the permitted route for the journey being made

Though the effect is unfortunate, the rules are at least consistent IMHO. The bigger issue is determining whether nearby lines count as being the same, and here the Quarry Lines are probably the most ambiguous example of them all. But with Weedon it's clear it's a different line as it runs many miles from Northampton.

If this is about the validity of tickets on the LSL/WCRC trains that are running over the next few days, I would not be overly concerned, as there are no Avanti staff onboard and the stewards etc. have been instructed not to check tickets.

 

[ABB125]

Thanks very much - quite an interesting quirk of the rules I think! Ultimately it doesn't really matter, the Rugby ticket only costs £2.45 extra (with railcard discount) which is hardly going to break the bank...

If this is about the validity of tickets on the LSL/WCRC trains that are running over the next few days, I would not be overly concerned, as there are no Avanti staff onboard and the stewards etc. have been instructed not to check tickets.

What gave it away?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks very much - quite an interesting quirk of the rules I think! Ultimately it doesn't really matter, the Rugby ticket only costs £2.45 extra (with railcard discount) which is hardly going to break the bank...


What gave it away?

Now of course I wouldn't take that as a licence to do whatever you want, as there is always the remote possibility of roving RPIs and there will be the usual barriers at either end. But it's certainly not the same as being on a train with a TM hungry for commission...