Colonel H Stephens Mk II?

[Domeyhead]

SOmeone posed the discussion "What if Beeching had never happened?" My view is that without investment many branch lines would have become semi derelict and so run down as to dissuade travellers.
But supposing the Beeching Act anticipated privatisation and allowed branches to be owned and operated privately with minimal subsidy and guaranteed running rights into BR stations? Many branches by their nature were more or less stand alone operations. I can envisage a situation where (for example) groups of retiring professional railwaymen controlled operations backed up by a local workforce on non operational tasks could take over a line due for closure and with some government assistance operate it commercially with a lot more enterprise than BR had done - a sort of public private partnership.
Almost all closures were opposed locally - if that opposition had been harnessed then some lines could have been turned around. Others would have limped on, sustained more by goodwill than profit - and key figures able to operate businesses on a shoestring would have emerged to snap up ailing branches for a song. A new generation of Col Stephens figures would have emerged, some operating as Meriden style co-operatives, others guiding PBSR style private lines.
Such lines would have needed a new act along the lines of an enhanced Light Railway order - permitting higher line speeds (50mph?) but with relaxed governance.
My feeling It was the lack of government vision and enterrpise that killed the railways in the sixties and Ernest Marples was the real villain - Beeching was just doing the job he was asked to do.

 

[paul1609]

SOmeone posed the discussion "What if Beeching had never happened?" My view is that without investment many branch lines would have become semi derelict and so run down as to dissuade travellers.
But supposing the Beeching Act anticipated privatisation and allowed branches to be owned and operated privately with minimal subsidy and guaranteed running rights into BR stations? Many branches by their nature were more or less stand alone operations. I can envisage a situation where (for example) groups of retiring professional railwaymen controlled operations backed up by a local workforce on non operational tasks could take over a line due for closure and with some government assistance operate it commercially with a lot more enterprise than BR had done - a sort of public private partnership.
Almost all closures were opposed locally - if that opposition had been harnessed then some lines could have been turned around. Others would have limped on, sustained more by goodwill than profit - and key figures able to operate businesses on a shoestring would have emerged to snap up ailing branches for a song. A new generation of Col Stephens figures would have emerged, some operating as Meriden style co-operatives, others guiding PBSR style private lines.
Such lines would have needed a new act along the lines of an enhanced Light Railway order - permitting higher line speeds (50mph?) but with relaxed governance.
My feeling It was the lack of government vision and enterrpise that killed the railways in the sixties and Ernest Marples was the real villain - Beeching was just doing the job he was asked to do.

In fact this is what several of the preservation societies were set up to do. My own the K&ESR initially envisaged that most of its income would be earned from wagon load freight with an occasional passenger service operated by Railbuses.
Unfortunately this was blown away by the Labour Government and the then transport minister Barbara Castle refusal to allow the transfer of the light railway order basically because of the cost of providing bridges for two dual carriages that were planed at the time.
Eventually a compromise was reached after lobbying by the local Conservative MP Bill Deedes whereby the society would only operate the Tenterden to Bodiam section obviously this made through freight an impossibility and the railway survived as a leisure attraction.
The society now hopes to be operating back to Robertsbridge and the main line in around 10 years time and there is already talk of whether the line would be able to support a summer only public transport type service.

 

[142094]

Hard to say, but who would have predicted that modern times there would be such a high demand for rail travel? Perhaps if passenger number had picked up, there would have been more investment and some lines may not have closed.

Two benefits of the Beeching cuts that I can see are the rise in the preservation scene and also it has made people aware of what we have lost - it would be very hard for Network Rail or the DfT to come along now and say we are going to close X, Y, and Z lines. There would be an uproar.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it could have been worth a try for some of the genuine branch lines with potential, or where the Local Authority may have had a tourism interest in being more pro-active in keeping the route, for example Withernsea and Lyme Regis etc. The indecent haste with which some track beds were disposed has been well documented.

That said, I still think that some of the closures at around that time such as Okehampton - Bere Alston, Tunbridge Wells - Lewes, Alton - Winchester and Matlock - Chinley were wrong strategically, and it would be difficult to envisage them not being retained as integrated parts of the national network.

 

[Penmorfa]

What lines did you specifically have in mind? Are you thinking of pre - dieselisation or post? Also despite 50 plus years of railway preservation no group has ever managed to operate a year round service for the ordinary traveller. So maybe that answers your question?

 

[Domeyhead]

What lines did you specifically have in mind? Are you thinking of pre - dieselisation or post? Also despite 50 plus years of railway preservation no group has ever managed to operate a year round service for the ordinary traveller. So maybe that answers your question?

Dave, I was assuming a scenario where if line "x" was making a loss of £y the government would offer the line to anyone able to run it for a loss of less than £y - hence the Holman Stephens reference. It is only a sad speculation of course but many lines could perhaps just have made a case to continue with a light touch regulation and (I concede) some level of subsidy perhaps from local councils/education authorities and so on. Down my way, examples might include Andover - Romsey and Fareham - Gosport along with the Alton to Winchester already mentioned above, all of which today would see usage flourish. A key ingredient in all this would have been a new class of railway order permitting higher line speeds and faster timings (which I think is key to your point about the non leisure travel by ordinary passengers) and perhaps provisos around the use of DMUs in exchange for relaxed infrastructure standards.
There is another intersting question about whether a private line open for commercial passenger use could have gone on to exploit the leisure market by offering heritage services in between regular services - I think not - the clash of ideals, priorities and attitudes would have been too much then and in many lines is still too much even today (Will Leekbrook - Cauldon Lowe break the mould - I hope so)!

 

[ACE1888]

Good topic
It's 'Never Too Late' with anything to do with railway re instatement, but it's just so 'political', the need for integrated transport is always there, but is it any nearer happening, especially in England? Alas No...:cry:
The 'profit at all costs' regime still remains supreme, social need sadly isn't successive Governments priority either

 

[Penmorfa]

I think that any lines saved in this way would inevitably turn into heritage preservation lines. That is what the great body of enthusiasts is interested in, rightly or wrongly. The idea of a public service would just turn into recreating the 'great days of steam'. The sixties were a bad time for railways, most communities had already turned their back on their local branch line and this at a time when car ownership was a lot lower. Unless you could find a branch line with a niche market, like the Looe or St Ives lines, then the increasing demand by these lines for more subsidy would see the public service ethic disappear.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think David St John Thomas summed it up beautifully when he said that people turned out in the 1960's to see off their branch lines , but they had long since stopped using them bar the very odd journey in times of snow or bad weather.

Society went for the motor car ......(and apart from the late , great Gerry Fiennes in East Anglia with the "basic railway" idea , costs had not been removed as fast as they could have been. Locally - Dunstable to Welwyn ought to have survived as a "paytain" with minimal signalling etc - but closed with loco hauled sets and fully staffed stations.

 

[MikeWh]

What lines did you specifically have in mind? Are you thinking of pre - dieselisation or post? Also despite 50 plus years of railway preservation no group has ever managed to operate a year round service for the ordinary traveller. So maybe that answers your question?

They're getting close though. The Swanage Railway will operate something on every Saturday and Sunday in 2012 and every day from March 24th to November 4th.

 

[Penmorfa]

They're getting close though. The Swanage Railway will operate something on every Saturday and Sunday in 2012 and every day from March 24th to November 4th.

Not exactly, on Jan and Feb weekends the timetable says: 'A diesel shuttle is operating between Norden and Corfe Castle. Park at Norden to take the train to visit the beautiful village of Corfe Castle'.

that's a 5 minute journey! So still a very long way from a year round public service

 

[MikeWh]

Not exactly, on Jan and Feb weekends the timetable says: 'A diesel shuttle is operating between Norden and Corfe Castle. Park at Norden to take the train to visit the beautiful village of Corfe Castle'.

that's a 5 minute journey! So still a very long way from a year round public service

I did say "something":roll:

Compared to many preserved lines where daily services only operate in July/August and nothing runs in the winter apart from a couple of santa specials, that is considerably better. Also, when you consider that there is very little car parking in Corfe itself, running a shuttle from the park and ride at Norden is indeed providing a public service. I'm certain that the Swanage Railway is very much part of the Dorset Council transport plan for managing the traffic on Purbec. Obviously there is no point running trains if no-one will use them, but how many other preserved lines run trains as late as 11pm in the summer to provide a link between Corfe and Swanage so holidaymakers can sample the Corfe nightlife.

If you still disagree then we'll have to agree to have differing opinions, but in my opinion a lot of what the Swanage Railway does is providing a public service to both residents of and visitors to Purbeck.

 

[142094]

How about the Weardael Railway? This from what I can tell operates every day of the year providing links to Bishop Auckland and connections with Northern to Darlington etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

How about the Weardale Railway? This from what I can tell operates every day of the year providing links to Bishop Auckland and connections with Northern to Darlington etc.

Just ceased - basically because nobody uses it.

Stanhope - Bishop Auckland Community Service to be Discontinued.
The operating company Weardale Railways CIC has issued the following
press release:

Press Release 27th December, 2011
Weardale Railway announced today that it is redesigning the passenger
service between Stanhope and Bishop Auckland that it has operated
since May, 2010.
Ed Ellis, president of Weardale Railway, said that “Our surveys of
passengers have clearly shown that passenger interest is
overwhelmingly in a heritage-type service for leisure travellers – a
service which Weardale Railway is particularly well positioned to
provide, given our heritage which dates back to the Stockton &
Darlington Railway, the first railway in the world. Very few
passengers over the past 19 months of service have used the service
for commuting.
“Accordingly, we plan to expand and improve our heritage railway
services catering specifically to the leisure and heritage market,
utilizing vintage locomotives – both steam and diesel - and heritage
carriages.
“In addition, we are in the process of making a series of facility
improvements, including a new platform at Bishop Auckland, improved
access to connecting trains at Northern Rail’s Bishop Auckland
station, a new track loop, and upgrades to the Stanhope station that
will improve our passengers’ experience.
“We will be announcing details of these improved heritage services
over the next several months. In the meantime, 31 December will be
the current community service schedule’s last day of operation.”
Ellis went on to say that the company will consider reinstating the
community service schedule if a particular need is identified, and if
financial support for a renewed service is available.
A majority interest in the Weardale Railway was acquired by British
American Railway Services in 2008, and the company reopened the line
to Bishop Auckland (and the connection to the national network) in
2010. Scheduled passenger service between Stanhope and Bishop Auckland
began in May, 2010. Freight service, utilizing a new coal transload
terminal at Wolsingham, began this year.

For further information, please contact Garcia Hanson at
0771-013-2741.

All fairly predictable IMHO...

 

[142094]

Just ceased - basically because nobody uses it.

All fairly predictable IMHO...

Passed me by (was looking at the website only afew days previous as well). The main problem is no doubt the fact that the linespeeds are low and connecting services at Bishop Auckland are only a few each day. Still, at least some sort of service is still running.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Society went for the motor car(and apart from the late , great Gerry Fiennes in East Anglia with the "basic railway" idea ) and costs had not been removed as fast as they could have been.

Locally - Dunstable to Welwyn ought to have survived as a "paytrain" with minimal signalling etc - but closed with loco hauled sets and fully staffed stations.

Your comment with regard to the motor car is indeed valid, not just for the case of the freedom that the car afforded to the general public to go where and when they chose, but also the fact that the British motor industry was developing rapidly with many people employed in that particular industry.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Many heritage railways started out with ambitions to run some commercial passenger and freight services, but as previous posters have pointed out, this hasn't really happened. I'd also take issue with the assertion that the opposition to line closure was a force worth harnessing. Many lines, some quite extensive, closed with barely a ripple of local interest, probably because so few people were using them. It would be nice to believe that local communities could have taken on some of Beeching's victims, but the reality is that the only market is for heritage railways, not public transport. This might change in the future, but when Dr Beeching made his cuts there was no serious prospect of these lines having a useful purpose. Admittedly, there were some mistakes, the Doctor was no surgeon, and little thought was given to the wholesale closure of many branches.

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose where the Colnel Stephens 2 idea falls down is that any Colnel Stephens 2 would have had to make a profit. We have many important and incredibly useful routes on the network which are open today, but which still require a subsidy. What might have been a better approach for the many routes which shouldn't have closed, would have been to make it easier for Local Authorities to contribute to keeping the service open. However, given the motor-centric priorities of the time, there's no guarantee that they would have stepped in.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Remember these were railways that were not seen as viable to run even with basic infrastructure and cheap, lightweight units or railbuses. I don't see where allowing private companies to run them would have been any different. Allowing higher speeds than the Light Rail Orders would have required higher standards of training and maintenance, both in terms of stock and infrastructure. I imagine many of the closed lines didn't have much better journey times before closure than they do now as heritage lines.

Of cource there always has been the option of converting to tramways.

 

[Tiny Tim]

The lines that were axed by Beeching could, in many cases, have reduced their running costs by the introduction of railbus type services and unmanned stations, but this wouldn't have changed the fact that many of these lines were very lightly used, and would never show a profit by Beeching's definition. Prior to nationalisation little was done to define which parts of the system made money or not. The big railway companies acquired smaller lines as a means of expansion or to stick it to the competition, the fact that these were often fairly marginal enterprises didn't dissuade the Great Western and others from absorbing these loss-making railways. Rightly or wrongly, Beeching was the first to look at which bits made money. Nowadays we hardly expect profits from public transport, but at the time of 'The Reshaping of British Railways' it was accepted that railways should make money.