Colne to Skipton Rail Project

[bluenoxid]

But its not going to happen as a railway.

The A56 is busy because of the road layout around Colne. Several Roundabouts and Traffic Light Junctions between a Motorway and two roads (to (Crosshills) Keighley and Skipton respectively). Whilst I cannot vouch for the traffic, much of it is not aiming for stations that could be served by a Skipton - Blackpool South/Manchester service as the route is used as an alternative transpennine route.

Any tram crossing could be fitted between traffic light sequences created as a result of junction priorities for Motorway bound traffic, whilst traffic is held slow as a result of traffic for those vehicles Keighley and Skipton bound. A train on the other hand will block the road for 60 seconds at least.

 

[yorksrob]

The local campaign definately appears to be for a rail route linking Colne to the national network at Skipton rather than an extension of the branchline as a tram. If this drive towards localism is anything other than BS then they ought to take notice of that campaign - even if it means building an additional road bridge.

 

[tbtc]

The local campaign definately appears to be for a rail route linking Colne to the national network at Skipton

The campaign (or elements of it) seem to want to electrify from Skipton to Preston, brand new EMUs and frequent services; these are not modest ambitions

 

[yorksrob]

The campaign (or elements of it) seem to want to electrify from Skipton to Preston, brand new EMUs and frequent services; these are not modest ambitions

This is true – and I would even say overambitious in that respect. However, I think you could reasonably argue that as long as the resultant railway links the same locations as part of the same network and serves the same communities as proposed, it is still in the spirit of the campaign – even if it may need to be scaled down a bit.

 

[bluenoxid]

They want a railway but what one wants and what one gets are usually two different things. just a road bridge has added £10 million to the project. Unfortunately the group is blindly fighting for a railway without scrutinising the transport needs of the area, which would be better bus services, improved rail access to the area (as there are few rail services already) and improvements to the road network.

 

[WatcherZero]

Lancashire, Blackburn with Darwen and other councils in the area have just axed a lot of bus routes as part of the budget savings. I dont think you can see these kind of rural areas recieving increased bus routes anytime in the future.

 

[SteveB]

I write as the founder chairman of SELRAP, which was "born" almost exactly 10 years ago. I founded it as a personal challenge, and I am more than delighted to see how the group has flourished since I stood down some time ago - and I only did so because my work took me, at that time, out of the area.

I am also pleased to see so many favourable comments on this Forum, which I have joined so I can reply! Those who don't see the vision are quite entitled to their views, it is easy to sit back and carp, but those that have taken the project forward have done truly AMAZING work - some of the core activists have been there since the very first meeting and are all but obsessed with the idea.....

You can be sure that over the past 10 years every angle has been looked at, and no effort spared to get the possible advice and engage with those that really matter. It is not hare-brained, it is costed, it is practicable and above all it is very very worthwhile.

The progress made, although not yet visible in concrete and rail, is also exceptional, few if any rail re-opening campaign groups have got anywhere near as far down the long and tortuous route, and if you don't try to do something you believe in, you will never succeed, and the least that can be said about SELRAP is that they try and try and try.

The re-opened line, and re-open it will, will transform towns like Colne and Nelson, and hep bring prosperity to the whole corridor. The benefits of the line have been set out clearly in SELRAP documents from the very start, and have been echoed in professional studies.

I now spend my time writing for RAIL magazine, and I very much hope I can bring news of the project, and mark its 10th birthday, to RAIL's pages during the spring. I feel there may well be an exciting tale to tell, before too long.

So, every strength to SELRAP, congratulations to all for the progress made to date, and let the doubters be confounded!

SB

 

[Ploughman]

Lancashire, Blackburn with Darwen and other councils in the area have just axed a lot of bus routes as part of the budget savings. I dont think you can see these kind of rural areas recieving increased bus routes anytime in the future.

How many people would actually consider Blackburn and Darwen to be RURAL areas?
Ok there are some fields around but when driving past Blackburn to Colne on the M65 the surroundings are definately not rural to my mind.

 

[caliwag]

Thanks SteveB for putting some history to it and a very positive slant. It is interesting how the general prosperity of an area can be multiplied by, not only a heritage railway, but true transport links...and I don't mean a tram. The true potential of through trains linking in time with the Embsay railway ( and possibly through to Grassington etc) can only be guessed at, to say nothing of job opportunities East and West. The financial benefits can only be guess at, and most cost benefit figures seem to be understated guesswork anyway.
Good luck to all concerned at both ventures...OK one "big" railway and one heritage, but isn't that all to be applauded. Think of it as part of the, er, 'Big Society'!

 

[tbtc]

Those who don't see the vision are quite entitled to their views, it is easy to sit back and carp

I think you're being unnecessarily defensive there - I don't think there's been "carping" on here, just some realistic questions asked (why do you need to build a whole new line when smaller improvements like a chord at Todmorden would be much cheaper/simpler?).

Your dismissive tone, and the hyperbola of linking "Ireland and Mainland Europe" makes me think that a realistic argument isn't what the SELRAP converts want however

 

[lancastrian]

As I travel often from Lancashire to Harrogate to visit my father on a regular basis. The road network through Colne is a complete shambles. The Motorway ends just before Colne, causing all the traffic to miander its way through traffic lights, a roundabout, and a reduction down to single lane, and this same road serves a new Comercial Park along the same road. As you head out toward Skipton, you have to climb a steep hill after a sharp left turn on either of the two roads you can use. The roads are completely unsuitable for the trafic using them, mainly due to car parking rstricting the already restricted width of these roads.

After you get through Colne, and Foulridge, then Earby, all single lane in each direction roads. Earby has the same problem with parking as you pass the site of the old station, right in the centr of the town. After Earby, dispite some slight straitening of the road, it curves sharply between Earby and Thornton in Craven. It is only after Thornton that the road is decent enough to get above 40 mph, until you reach the junction with the A59. The roads in the area are certainly not surficient for the traffic using it.

What the area needs is for the Colne to Skipton line to be reopened and the Colne to Rose Grove line redoubled. At this time Colne, Nelson, Brierfield & Central Burnley (all large towns) are down a cul-de-sac as far as a train service is concerned. Although a full electrified line from Leeds through Skipton and East Lancashire to Preston would be ideal, lets get this vital line reopened. As to the cost, well it might cost a lot, but the benefits will be more than the cost in the medium term. It always is, those who are supposed to know better always underestimate the usage of these reopened lines. Just look at what has happened with the Alloa line, The Ebbw Vale Line, the Aberdare line and now the Airdrie to bathgate line, when there is a descent rail service people will use it because it is often faster then the bus, and of a similar price. As I said in a previous post here, if this is reopened, I will certainly use it to get to Skipton, which I visit often. If you include the petrol costs and parking charges, it will be cost neutral for me.

 

[tbtc]

It always is, those who are supposed to know better always underestimate the usage of these reopened lines. Just look at what has happened with the Alloa line, The Ebbw Vale Line, the Aberdare line and now the Airdrie to bathgate line

Are you suggesting that the Airdrie - Bathgate line (running hourly instead of the promised fifteen minute frequency) has higher-than-expected passenger numbers?

What enthusiasts forget is that there are also poorly performing reopenings/ new lines, but these never make the list (e.g. Glasgow Queen - Anniesland, Sunderland - Hylton). I've never heard the Brighouse line being held up as a shining example either to be fair.

 

[yorksrob]

They want a railway but what one wants and what one gets are usually two different things. just a road bridge has added £10 million to the project. Unfortunately the group is blindly fighting for a railway without scrutinising the transport needs of the area, which would be better bus services, improved rail access to the area (as there are few rail services already) and improvements to the road network.

Well, the road bridge is an interesting point. Ten million is indeed a lot of money, but in the scheme of even smaller civil engineering projects, it is quite normal and rarely a dealbreaker. You will find that even in these economic circomstances, bridges of this sort will still be built. And I suspect that your tramway will not be much cheaper either.

I find it curious that you accuse SELRAP of blindly fighting for a railway, yet it has the support of several of the local authorities in the area, not to mention North Yorks and Lancashire County Councils, i.e the the people who actually monitor and plan the public transport needs of the area, as well as numerous local businesses. Perhaps there is an alternative campaign that I can't find supporting your assertions.

As I travel often from Lancashire to Harrogate to visit my father on a regular basis. The road network through Colne is a complete shambles. The Motorway ends just before Colne, causing all the traffic to miander its way through traffic lights, a roundabout, and a reduction down to single lane, and this same road serves a new Comercial Park along the same road. As you head out toward Skipton, you have to climb a steep hill after a sharp left turn on either of the two roads you can use. The roads are completely unsuitable for the trafic using them, mainly due to car parking rstricting the already restricted width of these roads.

After you get through Colne, and Foulridge, then Earby, all single lane in each direction roads. Earby has the same problem with parking as you pass the site of the old station, right in the centr of the town. After Earby, dispite some slight straitening of the road, it curves sharply between Earby and Thornton in Craven. It is only after Thornton that the road is decent enough to get above 40 mph, until you reach the junction with the A59. The roads in the area are certainly not surficient for the traffic using it.

What the area needs is for the Colne to Skipton line to be reopened and the Colne to Rose Grove line redoubled. At this time Colne, Nelson, Brierfield & Central Burnley (all large towns) are down a cul-de-sac as far as a train service is concerned. Although a full electrified line from Leeds through Skipton and East Lancashire to Preston would be ideal, lets get this vital line reopened. As to the cost, well it might cost a lot, but the benefits will be more than the cost in the medium term. It always is, those who are supposed to know better always underestimate the usage of these reopened lines. Just look at what has happened with the Alloa line, The Ebbw Vale Line, the Aberdare line and now the Airdrie to bathgate line, when there is a descent rail service people will use it because it is often faster then the bus, and of a similar price. As I said in a previous post here, if this is reopened, I will certainly use it to get to Skipton, which I visit often. If you include the petrol costs and parking charges, it will be cost neutral for me.

Here here, I think your campaign is an excellent example of what can be achieved and like the majority on here, wish you all every success.

Are you suggesting that the Airdrie - Bathgate line (running hourly instead of the promised fifteen minute frequency) has higher-than-expected passenger numbers?

What enthusiasts forget is that there are also poorly performing reopenings/ new lines, but these never make the list (e.g. Glasgow Queen - Anniesland, Sunderland - Hylton). I've never heard the Brighouse line being held up as a shining example either to be fair.

I don’t know much about the Scottish re-openings, but the line through Brighouse has already gone from being a shuttle service for Brighouse itself to providing improved services to the Calder Valley whilst avoiding the congested Bradford area.

 

[WatcherZero]

How many people would actually consider Blackburn and Darwen to be RURAL areas?
Ok there are some fields around but when driving past Blackburn to Colne on the M65 the surroundings are definately not rural to my mind.

The bus routes deliver people FROM the rural outlying towns and villages into the citys. Often some of these areas only have a couple of buses a day and are a lifeline for those without cars or unable to drive.

 

[tbtc]

I don’t know much about the Scottish re-openings, but the line through Brighouse has already gone from being a shuttle service for Brighouse itself to providing improved services to the Calder Valley whilst avoiding the congested Bradford area.

...but is useage above expected numbers? Same with Aylesbury Parkway and the examples I gave last night; we use the "Alloa got double the numbers, so any other new line is guaranteed to perform better than expected" line so often that I think some people are blind to the "bad" reopenings (e.g. Sunderland - Hylton, Glasgow Queen Street - Anniesland)

Since SELRAP doesn't link anywhere big that doesn't already have a link (e.g. there's an hourly train from Leeds/Bradford to Burnley/Blackburn/Preston already) I'm suspicious of the supposed demand

 

[selrap]

...but is useage above expected numbers? Same with Aylesbury Parkway and the examples I gave last night; we use the "Alloa got double the numbers, so any other new line is guaranteed to perform better than expected" line so often that I think some people are blind to the "bad" reopenings (e.g. Sunderland - Hylton, Glasgow Queen Street - Anniesland)

Since SELRAP doesn't link anywhere big that doesn't already have a link (e.g. there's an hourly train from Leeds/Bradford to Burnley/Blackburn/Preston already) I'm suspicious of the supposed demand

Thankyou for your comments, all of this feedback helps SELRAP a great deal, note on the demand though, this project will cover the Towns between Skipton and shipply for fast links to Preston, Manchester, and Liverpool.

You also have to look at tourism, it will be a direct fast Link for the Regions of Manchester, Preston and Liverpool, to the North Yorkshire Moors National Park, with lots more factors also taken into consideration.

The Missing Link will be the cheapest Link over the Pennines, having Low Gradient, No Major Tunnels, or steep embankments, we now know that this was a very important Link over the pennines for the MOD during the 2nd World War due to those facts.

I have to say that New Costings are comming out for the project, which include Electrification, this will make both Network Rail and the DFT sit up, but thats all I can say at this stage in the project, Just keep an eye on the News around April and May this year.

 

[cle]

Good luck to you. Any reopening is going to need it in the next few years.

It's satisfying to see lines being joined up on the map I guess - I don't see a huge demand for the services (what services would you envisage?) but maybe it is suppressed.

Currently Colne only gets that rather tragic Blackpool South service. Continuing that on to Leeds would be a miserable journey! I imagine you would focus on Manchester - which doesn't even directly serve Nelson and Colne today (and it could easily) despite them being in Lancashire and so traditionally being more linked that Skipton or Keighley, for example.

But the Yorkshire two are more affluent, so perhaps this might make a difference. I think the Todmorden curve would achieve more for less. Colne services could become 2tph shuttles to Preston, with good timed connections at Blackburn for Manchester trains.

 

[yorksrob]

...but is useage above expected numbers? Same with Aylesbury Parkway and the examples I gave last night; we use the "Alloa got double the numbers, so any other new line is guaranteed to perform better than expected" line so often that I think some people are blind to the "bad" reopenings (e.g. Sunderland - Hylton, Glasgow Queen Street - Anniesland)

Since SELRAP doesn't link anywhere big that doesn't already have a link (e.g. there's an hourly train from Leeds/Bradford to Burnley/Blackburn/Preston already) I'm suspicious of the supposed demand

Parkway stations are notorious for taking time to bed in - look at Southampton and East Midlands, but I think the circumstances are quite different from filling in one of the "missing links" (other people are better qualified than me to comment on extensions to the Tyne and Wear Metro), but I feel this quite keenly since I've used what very nearly became a missing link regularly for around 25 years now between Ashford and Hastings.

Like the Colne line, it links two reasonable sized towns which you wouldn't expect many people to have reason to travel between. Also like the Skipton - Colne route, the ends both have more glamerous main routes (in this case to London rather than Leeds or Manc), although there has always been a certain amount of traffic generated on the line by other towns a bit further on. The terrain is also similar in that the line is mainly rural, with one or two smallish settlements along the way.

This route, which got by for years with a two or three carriage DEMU every hour, was also under threat of closure during the car-centric era, yet crucially it got a reprieve, and now the line survives busier than ever. Not only is it vital for the communities along the way, but it also provides an important (and well used) link between some of the smaller towns in Kent and East Sussex.

This is why I feel very strongly that these sort of links need to be brought back where possible as part of the rail network, and that even if the economic circumstances don't allow for re-opening just yet, I hope that SELRAP, and others, such as the Wealden link, keep on hammering away at it until it does.

 

[selrap]

Good luck to you. Any reopening is going to need it in the next few years.

It's satisfying to see lines being joined up on the map I guess - I don't see a huge demand for the services (what services would you envisage?) but maybe it is suppressed.

Currently Colne only gets that rather tragic Blackpool South service. Continuing that on to Leeds would be a miserable journey! I imagine you would focus on Manchester - which doesn't even directly serve Nelson and Colne today (and it could easily) despite them being in Lancashire and so traditionally being more linked that Skipton or Keighley, for example.

But the Yorkshire two are more affluent, so perhaps this might make a difference. I think the Todmorden curve would achieve more for less. Colne services could become 2tph shuttles to Preston, with good timed connections at Blackburn for Manchester trains.

thanks for your comment, SELRAP and Consultants see the project taking shape as a passenger and freight link, on the passenger side from Leeds to Blackpool South via Colne, Leeds to Manchester, Via Colne and Tod Curve, ? Leeds to Liverpool via Colne, ? Manchester Airport to Bradford via Colne, (it has even been said that an extention of the Skipton to London service starts at Colne, and that was quoted by two rail operating company's ? )

 

[bluenoxid]

Those who don't see the vision are quite entitled to their views, it is easy to sit back and carp.

Unlike a project, a campaign group like this is not subject to a judicial review or complete interrogation of the options it is looking at. Me and several others are offering because it will be people like us who will ask those questions at the public inquiry.

but those that have taken the project forward have done truly AMAZING work - some of the core activists have been there since the very first meeting and are all but obsessed with the idea.....

It's one idea but I live in the area and it will be my council tax that will fund this route. I expect value for money and I certainly want the best I can get.

Thanks SteveB for putting some history to it and a very positive slant. It is interesting how the general prosperity of an area can be multiplied by, not only a heritage railway, but true transport links...and I don't mean a tram. The true potential of through trains linking in time with the Embsay railway ( and possibly through to Grassington etc) can only be guessed at

Aye guessed. Transport is a system and not just a railway.

As I travel often from Lancashire to Harrogate to visit my father on a regular basis. The road network through Colne is a complete shambles. The Motorway ends just before Colne, causing all the traffic to miander its way through traffic lights, a roundabout, and a reduction down to single lane, and this same road serves a new Comercial Park along the same road. As you head out toward Skipton, you have to climb a steep hill after a sharp left turn on either of the two roads you can use. The roads are completely unsuitable for the trafic using them, mainly due to car parking rstricting the already restricted width of these roads.

After you get through Colne, and Foulridge, then Earby, all single lane in each direction roads. Earby has the same problem with parking as you pass the site of the old station, right in the centr of the town. After Earby, dispite some slight straitening of the road, it curves sharply between Earby and Thornton in Craven. It is only after Thornton that the road is decent enough to get above 40 mph, until you reach the junction with the A59. The roads in the area are certainly not surficient for the traffic using it.

You get all of the issues with the roads to a tee and the railway will do very little to alleviate it. If it was spread across a road option and tramtrain on the existing route, additional benefits would be gained by improving these sections of road.

What the area needs is for the Colne to Skipton line to be reopened and the Colne to Rose Grove line redoubled. At this time Colne, Nelson, Brierfield & Central Burnley (all large towns) are down a cul-de-sac as far as a train service is concerned.

But on a fantastic set of bus routes with the X43 passing onwards to Manchester, three bph to Skipton and one bph to Keighley.

Although a full electrified line from Leeds through Skipton and East Lancashire to Preston would be ideal, lets get this vital line reopened. As to the cost, well it might cost a lot, but the benefits will be more than the cost in the medium term. It always is, those who are supposed to know better always underestimate the usage of these reopened lines. Just look at what has happened with the Alloa line, The Ebbw Vale Line, the Aberdare line and now the Airdrie to bathgate line, when there is a descent rail service people will use it because it is often faster then the bus, and of a similar price. As I said in a previous post here, if this is reopened, I will certainly use it to get to Skipton, which I visit often. If you include the petrol costs and parking charges, it will be cost neutral for me.

Yes it will cost a lot but it concerns me that an A380 is being specified for a milkround.

Well, the road bridge is an interesting point. Ten million is indeed a lot of money, but in the scheme of even smaller civil engineering projects, it is quite normal and rarely a dealbreaker. You will find that even in these economic circomstances, bridges of this sort will still be built. And I suspect that your tramway will not be much cheaper either.

But the tramway will serve Colne town centre and not miss it completely as the railway station will.

I find it curious that you accuse SELRAP of blindly fighting for a railway, yet it has the support of several of the local authorities in the area, not to mention North Yorks and Lancashire County Councils, i.e the the people who actually monitor and plan the public transport needs of the area, as well as numerous local businesses. Perhaps there is an alternative campaign that I can't find supporting your assertions.

Political Support. Look at how valuable that is. It is completely worthless and until the hard cash is made available, a campaign for an alternative is a waste of time. I think you will find that this area is the rear end for both councils and that they have very little spending in the area between Skipton and Colne.

I don’t know much about the Scottish re-openings, but the line through Brighouse has already gone from being a shuttle service for Brighouse itself to providing improved services to the Calder Valley whilst avoiding the congested Bradford area.

They opened Brighouse Station, the line has been there all along. The
Manchester service has been for a number of reasons. Brighouse and it shuttle has helped but certainly is not the be all and end all.

Thankyou for your comments, all of this feedback helps SELRAP a great deal, note on the demand though, this project will cover the Towns between Skipton and shipply for fast links to Preston, Manchester, and Liverpool.

You won't get it to Liverpool and you will struggle to get a direct service to Manchester. And I think the bus from Keighley would beat it.

You also have to look at tourism, it will be a direct fast Link for the Regions of Manchester, Preston and Liverpool, to the North Yorkshire Moors National Park, with lots more factors also taken into consideration.

Surely this would be better delivered by extending the Blackpool North-York service to Scarborough. If you are talking about the Yorkshire Dales National Park, surely extending the Clitheroe service to Hellifield and on to Carlisle would be better value as Skipton is only the gateway to the YDNP.

Missing Link will be the cheapest Link over the Pennines, having Low Gradient, No Major Tunnels, or steep embankments, we now know that this was a very important Link over the pennines for the MOD during the 2nd World War due to those facts.

And now it requires a lot of money to make it the cheapest link over the Pennines. AFAIK, the triangle services are heavily subsidised due to the cost of the 333's. WW2 is over. The Germans lost.

I have to say that New Costings are comming out for the project, which include Electrification, this will make both Network Rail and the DFT sit up, but thats all I can say at this stage in the project, Just keep an eye on the News around April and May this year.

Oh yeah course. Alongside the other costed projects that have a better case and are being REJECTED for funding.

 

[selrap]

Unlike a project, a campaign group like this is not subject to a judicial review or complete interrogation of the options it is looking at. Me and several others are offering because it will be people like us who will ask those questions at the public inquiry.



It's one idea but I live in the area and it will be my council tax that will fund this route. I expect value for money and I certainly want the best I can get.



Aye guessed. Transport is a system and not just a railway.



You get all of the issues with the roads to a tee and the railway will do very little to alleviate it. If it was spread across a road option and tramtrain on the existing route, additional benefits would be gained by improving these sections of road.



But on a fantastic set of bus routes with the X43 passing onwards to Manchester, three bph to Skipton and one bph to Keighley.



Yes it will cost a lot but it concerns me that an A380 is being specified for a milkround.



But the tramway will serve Colne town centre and not miss it completely as the railway station will.



Political Support. Look at how valuable that is. It is completely worthless and until the hard cash is made available, a campaign for an alternative is a waste of time. I think you will find that this area is the rear end for both councils and that they have very little spending in the area between Skipton and Colne.




They opened Brighouse Station, the line has been there all along. The
Manchester service has been for a number of reasons. Brighouse and it shuttle has helped but certainly is not the be all and end all.



You won't get it to Liverpool and you will struggle to get a direct service to Manchester. And I think the bus from Keighley would beat it.



Surely this would be better delivered by extending the Blackpool North-York service to Scarborough. If you are talking about the Yorkshire Dales National Park, surely extending the Clitheroe service to Hellifield and on to Carlisle would be better value as Skipton is only the gateway to the YDNP.




And now it requires a lot of money to make it the cheapest link over the Pennines. AFAIK, the triangle services are heavily subsidised due to the cost of the 333's. WW2 is over. The Germans lost.



Oh yeah course. Alongside the other costed projects that have a better case and are being REJECTED for funding.

Its not being Government funded, and the money is their if you know where to look, and the project is over a much wider Region, more on all of this to follow, watch out for April/May 2011. thats all I can say for now.

 

[yorksrob]

But the tramway will serve Colne town centre and not miss it completely as the railway station will.

Perhaps you might could ask some of those living on surviving rural railways whether they would prefer their link to the rest of the national rail network to be replaced by some half arsed tram pootling along the town centre streets and taking all day on a road that would be better suited to a bus in the first place.

 

[tbtc]

thanks for your comment, SELRAP and Consultants see the project taking shape as a passenger and freight link, on the passenger side from Leeds to Blackpool South via Colne, Leeds to Manchester, Via Colne and Tod Curve, ? Leeds to Liverpool via Colne, ? Manchester Airport to Bradford via Colne, (it has even been said that an extention of the Skipton to London service starts at Colne, and that was quoted by two rail operating company's ? )

Are these hourly aspirations?

Would Leeds - Skipton - Colne - Preston - Blackpool South replacing an existing EMU from Leeds to Skipton service with a DMU? Or are you wanting to electrify Skipton - Colne - Preston - Blackpool South?

Leeds to Manchester "Via Colne and Tod Curve"? So Leeds - Skipton - Colne - Burnley (reverse?) Todmorden Curve - Rochdale - Manchester? Again, presumably this would be a DMU replacing an existing EMU?

Manchester Airport - Colne - Bradford? Replacing an existing Bradford - Skipton EMU? Running via Bolton and Blackburn? Are there spare paths from Manchester Airport - Bolton?

Leeds - Colne - Liverpool? By which route? EMU or DMU?

As for extending the London - Skipton to/from Colne, I can see the attraction (maybe even Burnley), but this is due to move to 225 operation in May, so you'd need to electrify to Colne or lose the link?

Presumably, given the asperations you have for the line (four passenger services an hour, plus all the freight from Ireland to Continental Europe) then you're going to need a double track line (maybe with passing loops) plus electrification from Colne to Burnley - Blackburn - Preston - Blackpool South, electrification from Blackburn to Bolton/Manchester (and electrification from Burnley to Manchester via the Todmorden Curve and Rochdale too?)? Plus dozens of new EMUs to run all this. Suddenly the costs look a little larger...

 

[selrap]

Are these hourly aspirations?

Would Leeds - Skipton - Colne - Preston - Blackpool South replacing an existing EMU from Leeds to Skipton service with a DMU? Or are you wanting to electrify Skipton - Colne - Preston - Blackpool South?

Leeds to Manchester "Via Colne and Tod Curve"? So Leeds - Skipton - Colne - Burnley (reverse?) Todmorden Curve - Rochdale - Manchester? Again, presumably this would be a DMU replacing an existing EMU?

Manchester Airport - Colne - Bradford? Replacing an existing Bradford - Skipton EMU? Running via Bolton and Blackburn? Are there spare paths from Manchester Airport - Bolton?

Leeds - Colne - Liverpool? By which route? EMU or DMU?

As for extending the London - Skipton to/from Colne, I can see the attraction (maybe even Burnley), but this is due to move to 225 operation in May, so you'd need to electrify to Colne or lose the link?

Presumably, given the asperations you have for the line (four passenger services an hour, plus all the freight from Ireland to Continental Europe) then you're going to need a double track line (maybe with passing loops) plus electrification from Colne to Burnley - Blackburn - Preston - Blackpool South, electrification from Blackburn to Bolton/Manchester (and electrification from Burnley to Manchester via the Todmorden Curve and Rochdale too?)? Plus dozens of new EMUs to run all this. Suddenly the costs look a little larger...

Yes the full project is to have the line as Double Track, with full Electrification, so this would extend the Leeds to Skipton and Bradford to Skipton through to Manchester and Preston/Blackpool and may be Liverpool, costings will be revised down due to the project being funded with private finance, and the way in which the line is to be re-constructed.

More on this project will come out on SELRAP's 10TH Birthday which is in April.

But until then SELRAP wont be making any statements to the media or the general public.

 

[tbtc]

Yes the full project is to have the line as Double Track, with full Electrification, so this would extend the Leeds to Skipton and Bradford to Skipton through to Manchester and Preston/Blackpool and may be Liverpool, costings will be revised down due to the project being funded with private finance, and the way in which the line is to be re-constructed.

More on this project will come out on SELRAP's 10TH Birthday which is in April.

But until then SELRAP wont be making any statements to the media or the general public.

Fair enough - its certainly ambitious, around fifty miles of electrification (when you add on Blackpool South etc), several new EMUs required...

 

[bluenoxid]

Its not being Government funded, and the money is their if you know where to look, and the project is over a much wider Region, more on all of this to follow, watch out for April/May 2011. thats all I can say for now.

The moment you walk into the LCC and NYCC offices it is government funded. NYCC's transport budget is approx £25 million per annum at their best guess. That covers a lot of things.

http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=10775&p=0

Perhaps you might could ask some of those living on surviving rural railways whether they would prefer their link to the rest of the national rail network to be replaced by some half arsed tram pootling along the town centre streets and taking all day on a road that would be better suited to a bus in the first place.

Depends entirely on the situation. Main lines leading into Kings Cross is entirely unreasonable but the Blackpool South branch is certainly a candidate. The Watford to St Albans branch is due to become a tram because the train is not working. A tram could allow them to run 3tph compared to one every 45 minutes. Don't dismiss other options because a train is already there. Oh and Oldham, but I will let that rest.

Yes the full project is to have the line as Double Track, with full Electrification, so this would extend the Leeds to Skipton and Bradford to Skipton through to Manchester and Preston/Blackpool and may be Liverpool, costings will be revised down due to the project being funded with private finance, and the way in which the line is to be re-constructed.

So, you're promising a double track mainline, upgrades and electrification of many miles of route. Are you running before you can walk?

And you're now telling me its only going to be partially privately financed. You're going to need a large guarantor for any project of this kind. With the burned fingers over PFI/PPP do you think they are going to do it?

Also, how are you planning to serve NYNP?

More on this project will come out on SELRAP's 10TH Birthday which is in April.

But until then SELRAP wont be making any statements to the media or the general public.

The mainstream media will come and go with the press release but there will be some who will pull apart your figures and chase up your potential investors. Be very careful what you announce.

 

[cle]

SELRAP - I think your suggested services are slightly unrealistic. I don't think there is any demand for trains to London for example.

I would say:
Blackpool South - Preston...the old Colne train cut to a shuttle, but 2tph if the single lines permit.

Skipton - Preston...1tph via Colne.
Skipton - Manchester...1tph via Colne and Blackburn/Bolton - taking over the Blackburn/Victoria service.

Both DMUs. Tod Curve might give a circular Burnley/Manchester service, which could connect to a Skipton-Preston service to provide a second 2tph connection at Blackburn from Colne and Nelson. I think that's all you'd fill, to be honest.

Bradford - Manchester Airport via Skipton and Blackburn is lunacy! Much better for Bradford would be to extend the fast Caldervale service from Leeds hourly, linking Halifax, Bradford, Hebden Bridge, Tod and Rochdale with Man Airport, via the new Ordsall Curve and Oxford Rd/Piccadilly - Northern Hub etc...

 

[yorksrob]

Depends entirely on the situation. Main lines leading into Kings Cross is entirely unreasonable but the Blackpool South branch is certainly a candidate. The Watford to St Albans branch is due to become a tram because the train is not working. A tram could allow them to run 3tph compared to one every 45 minutes. Don't dismiss other options because a train is already there. Oh and Oldham, but I will let that rest.

I beg to differ.

Let's compare Manchester Metrolink which has a number of factors in it's favour to your proposals, the first being that the majority of of people travelling on it's feeder routes are travelling into Manchester not past it.

SELRAP, on the other hand, aims to use the Skipton - Colne corridoor not only to improve connections to Colne itself, but also wider connections between the Aire valley and East Yorkshire - the sort of journey length which is ideally suited to train transport, as opposed to short distance journeys within towns which are, frankly better served by the bus.

Another point about Metrolink is that although it does take it's time through the centre of Manchester, passengers still have the opportunity to change to the rail network at Victoria or Deansgate before they get to the centre. What you are proposing would be more akin to having Settle-Carlisle trains take a fifteen minute detour around Appleby before turning back and forcing onward passengers onto a bus to Carlisle.

Why would you use a long distance corridoor, suited to inter-urban train travel for a short distance intra-urban tram, whilst at the same time turfing inter-urban longer distance passengers off onto a short distance mode of transport (i.e a bus) onto an over congested road ?! This seems to be very muddled transport thinking.

Oh, and lets bring up Oldham. I strongly suspect that there will be irresistable pressure from residents North of Oldham to retain the direct route once the route through the centre opens.

By the way, we're all still eager to hear what your alternative transport plans will cost?

 

[tbtc]

By the way, we're all still eager to hear what your alternative transport plans will cost?

What's the realistic cost of the two track SELRAP re-opening with around fifty miles of electrification, dozens of new EMUs etc?

?

 

[Domeyhead]

While wishing SELRAP well, their self appointed spokesman should check his spelling and punctuation before posting. The campaign has been run professionally so far - attention to detail is vital, especially when putting out ideas to an unknown audience.
Enjoying Bluenoxid's challenging comments too. Any campaign spokesman should be able to stand up to rigorous examination. A subjective heavy rail bias should be exposed for what it is, and that is why we are all on this forum. If heavy rail is justified everyone needs to see why and how.