Colne-Skipton

[Halifaxlad]

SELRAP have put a price tag on the line reopening of £298 million.

Im presuming this is for reopening it double track and electrified ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Im presuming this is for reopening it double track and electrified ?

id be very surprised if it included electrification. Not least because there’s no wires at the south end…

 

[A0]

There are probably other things in that article which are nonsense but I got bored reading it.

If you think SELRAP's website and documents are a waste of time, then definitely don't go anywhere near any which ERTA have produced - their most recent cause being Northampton - Harborough. Their output makes SELRAP's look like the work of a true professional by comparison.

 

[fishwomp]

id be very surprised if it included electrification. Not least because there’s no wires at the south end…

That'd be rolling electrification then. Once you reach Colne, you'll soon be at Nelson. Scottish-style electrification, on steroids.

 

[Halifaxlad]

id be very surprised if it included electrification. Not least because there’s no wires at the south end…

I'll be very suprised if they could fit a hourly service down the Aire Valley without it being an extension of existing Skipton services.

 

[zwk500]

That'd be rolling electrification then. Once you reach Colne, you'll soon be at Nelson. Scottish-style electrification, on steroids.

It's a wonderful dream.

 

[30907]

I'll be very suprised if they could fit a hourly service down the Aire Valley without it being an extension of existing Skipton services.

Just cancel a few freights - oops! Isn’t freight part of the benefit?

 

[Sm5]

Given all the noise of Skipton to Colne over the decades, i’m surprised its never become a preservation scheme.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

On a probability of ever happening scale, how does Colne-Skipton rank with Hawick-Caslisle?

exactly the same.

Arguably Hawick-Carlisle has a higher probability due to its marketing potential as a Scottish equivalent to the Settle-Carlisle line. A fine fantasy from over 40 years ago was a Deltic hauled service between York-Edinburgh via both routes marketed heavily as a tourist route, perhaps even with observation cars. Looks really good in bright Crayola colours!

 

[Ken H]

That'd be rolling electrification then. Once you reach Colne, you'll soon be at Nelson. Scottish-style electrification, on steroids.

That'd be rolling electrification then. Once you reach Colne, you'll soon be at Nelson. Scottish-style electrification, on steroids.

make more sense to wire Skipton - Carnforth/Carlisle

 

[Bald Rick]

Given all the noise of Skipton to Colne over the decades, i’m surprised its never become a preservation scheme.

There’s nothing to preserve!

Arguably Hawick-Carlisle has a higher probability due to its marketing potential as a Scottish equivalent to the Settle-Carlisle line.

it doesn’t. It has zero chance.

 

[323235]

Skipton - Colne almost made it into Network Rail’s funding pipeline not all that long ago, so it can’t be that much of a pipe dream?

I happen to think that Nelson and Colne are crying out for better rail connectivity as Pendle is one of the most deprived areas of England and people in deprived areas tend to spend their limited earnings on convenience, so the convenience of a direct rail service to Skipton and ideally onto Leeds is a real boon and a no brainer.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

it doesn’t. It has zero chance.

I think you took my post too seriously!

 

[Neptune]

Skipton - Colne almost made it into Network Rail’s funding pipeline not all that long ago, so it can’t be that much of a pipe dream?

I happen to think that Nelson and Colne are crying out for better rail connectivity as Pendle is one of the most deprived areas of England and people in deprived areas tend to spend their limited earnings on convenience, so the convenience of a direct rail service to Skipton and ideally onto Leeds is a real boon and a no brainer.

So you lay the depravity firmly at the door of there being a buffer stop in Colne. Did you miss my post which states that those towns have a direct rail link to Burnley, Blackburn and Preston and 1 change to go to Manchester, Bradford and Leeds. Also if it’s Skipton and Keighley which helps those areas then surely the bus service with the £2 flat fare has changed the game more than spending up to half a billion pounds if not more (we all know that that’s what £298m realistically means these days) of public money on a scheme that has a marginal benefit for a few at the very most.

 

[Topological]

Playing devil's advocate for a while.

Say the line does re-open and takes the Blackpool to Leeds/York train as it's "fast" option. What fills the gap between Blackburn/Burnley and Halifax/Bradford? I appreciate Copy Pit still has the Manchester Victoria train, but there would be nothing left heading towards Hebden Bridge. Relatedly, what provision is made to path the stopping train to Colne with the Blackpool train on the same line?

If there was money for the area I would look at a second train from Colne which could run to either Blackburn or even continue to Manchester and aim to stimulate inevestment through that much cheaper improvement. There is not money though and a bus solution seems best with rail taking over at Burnley Manchester Road.

 

[30907]

Skipton - Colne almost made it into Network Rail’s funding pipeline not all that long ago, so it can’t be that much of a pipe dream?

Remind me of the detail?

I happen to think that Nelson and Colne are crying out for better rail connectivity as Pendle is one of the most deprived areas of England

Indeed they are - il recently I used to live and work in Hyndburn, the next borough for those who can't place it.

and people in deprived areas tend to spend their limited earnings on convenience, so the convenience of a direct rail service to Skipton and ideally onto Leeds is a real boon and a no brainer.

I thought the idea was to give them better access to jobs, rather to get them to spend their money in (wealthier) Yorkshire, though?

 

[zwk500]

Playing devil's advocate for a while.

Say the line does re-open and takes the Blackpool to Leeds/York train as it's "fast" option. What fills the gap between Blackburn/Burnley and Halifax/Bradford? I appreciate Copy Pit still has the Manchester Victoria train, but there would be nothing left heading towards Hebden Bridge. Relatedly, what provision is made to path the stopping train to Colne with the Blackpool train on the same line?

If there was money for the area I would look at a second train from Colne which could run to either Blackburn or even continue to Manchester and aim to stimulate inevestment through that much cheaper improvement. There is not money though and a bus solution seems best with rail taking over at Burnley Manchester Road.

Good grief you wouldn't divert the Blackpool-York, otherwise you'll cause absolute carnage at Leeds trying to get over to the through platforms.
You'd extend 1 or 2tph from Skipton to Blackburn.

 

[Bald Rick]

Skipton - Colne almost made it into Network Rail’s funding pipeline not all that long ago, so it can’t be that much of a pipe dream?

It didn’t!

I think you took my post too seriously!

 

[Bertie the bus]

I happen to think that Nelson and Colne are crying out for better rail connectivity as Pendle is one of the most deprived areas of England and people in deprived areas tend to spend their limited earnings on convenience, so the convenience of a direct rail service to Skipton and ideally onto Leeds is a real boon and a no brainer.

People in deprived areas don't spend their limited income on convenience. People with limited money spend their income on life's essentials, not having a jolly to Skipton. Also what people in deprived areas really want is for their area to not be deprived and a convenient way of getting to Skipton doesn't help lift the area. Bringing investment into the area reduces deprivation but that seems to be lost on people, like SELRAP, who think it should be reopened so freight can pass through.

 

[158756]

People in deprived areas don't spend their limited income on convenience. People with limited money spend their income on life's essentials, not having a jolly to Skipton. Also what people in deprived areas really want is for their area to not be deprived and a convenient way of getting to Skipton doesn't help lift the area. Bringing investment into the area reduces deprivation but that seems to be lost on people, like SELRAP, who think it should be reopened so freight can pass through.

How do you bring investment to the area though? There's no real reason for any business to move to Pendle, not least because the transport links are poor at the end of a motorway to nowhere and very slow rail line to no particularly large cities. It's quite common in post-industrial Britain that the towns which are best off are those where lots of people commute out to work in the cities, which is only really doable from Colne by driving to Burnley or Keighley for a train, and even that means a very long commute. Not that Skipton-Colne would make Leeds a very fast commute either and it would of course cost too much money, but there aren't many other ideas around.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The transport links aren't that poor. You have to remember transport to most people in the north means car and the M65 is probably the least congested motorway in England.

As for how do you bring in investment, I think the reality is that for some areas in the north you can't. They have lost their reason for existence and are too far away from major employment centres to be dormitory towns. It would take astronomical amounts to revive some areas. That might sound defeatist but I think it is reality and wasting a few hundred million £ on a pointless railway isn't going to reverse the decline.

I have to both agree and strongly disagree with this comment:

Not that Skipton-Colne would make Leeds a very fast commute either and it would of course cost too much money, but there aren't many other ideas around.

I agree that Skipton - Colne wouldn't make Leeds a fast commute and it would be too expensive for those on minimum wage, however I definitely don't agree that because there aren't really any other viable solutions we should just waste money on something that will make little or no difference.

 

[Irascible]

Given all the noise of Skipton to Colne over the decades, i’m surprised its never become a preservation scheme.

Why would you preserve it when it's been about to reopen all this time!

 

[tbtc]

Is there Something in the air? We seem to have threads about the GCR/ Lewes to Uckfield/ Colne to Skipton all at the same time (as well as a couple of general reopening ones discussing the merits of Woodhead etc)… must be Basket Case Season?

Or maybe, since Nationalisation isn’t panning out the way enthusiasts for it has claimed, it’s easier to shrink into nostalgia and ignore the confusing mess of the current day?

I happen to think that Nelson and Colne are crying out for better rail connectivity as Pendle is one of the most deprived areas of England and people in deprived areas tend to spend their limited earnings on convenience, so the convenience of a direct rail service to Skipton and ideally onto Leeds is a real boon and a no brainer.

What’s the opposite of a No Brainier?

What jobs in Leeds are the good people of Nelson going to get, given the commuting costs?

How many times a month will they want to head to Harvey Nicks?

And if better Rail connectivity is so important then why is nobody suggesting the simple extension of a Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn terminator through to Burnley and Colne? Manchester essentially has all of the attractions that Leeds has (jobs, shops, culture), but wouldn’t need hundreds of millions of pounds spending on some fantasy project, just maybe an extra Sprinter to replace the current Blackpool South service East of Blackburn

Playing devil's advocate for a while.

Say the line does re-open and takes the Blackpool to Leeds/York train as it's "fast" option.

I know playing Devil’s Advocate, so I’m not having a go here, this isn’t a personal attack… but I’d challenge the idea in the SELRAP propaganda that this would in any way be a “fast” line from Leeds to Burnley, given how far north it has to go to go via Skipton and the likely line speed over the “new” bit of line, plus the frequent stops west of Colne

That’s when they remember to acknowledge that there is an existing line from Leeds to Burnley, of course!

How do you bring investment to the area though? There's no real reason for any business to move to Pendle, not least because the transport links are poor at the end of a motorway to nowhere and very slow rail line to no particularly large cities

It’s a “motorway to nowhere” because population density north of Colne is rather low

Or is the Forum averse to motorways that end, in the same way it seems to hate buffer stops on railways?

And, again, no reason why Colne can’t have direct Manchester trains each hour, no expensive infrastructure required

 

[Neptune]

Is there Something in the air? We seem to have threads about the GCR/ Lewes to Uckfield/ Colne to Skipton all at the same time (as well as a couple of general reopening ones discussing the merits of Woodhead etc)… must be Basket Case Season?

Or maybe, since Nationalisation isn’t panning out the way enthusiasts for it has claimed, it’s easier to shrink into nostalgia and ignore the confusing mess of the current day?

Certainly seems that way at the moment. It comes around every so often and soon fizzles out once they’ve got it all out of their system (and had enough of fighting the realists).

And if better Rail connectivity is so important then why is nobody suggesting the simple extension of a Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn terminator through to Burnley and Colne? Manchester essentially has all of the attractions that Leeds has (jobs, shops, culture), but wouldn’t need hundreds of millions of pounds spending on some fantasy project, just maybe an extra Sprinter to replace the current Blackpool South service East of Blackburn

This, on top of a second copy pit service stopping at Rose Grove to give a seemless same platform connection to the Colne line is what they should be fighting for, something a little more realistic with half a chance of happening for a pittance of the money they’re begging for to reopen the link to Skipton.

I know playing Devil’s Advocate, so I’m not having a go here, this isn’t a personal attack… but I’d challenge the idea in the SELRAP propaganda that this would in any way be a “fast” line from Leeds to Burnley, given how far north it has to go to go via Skipton and the likely line speed over the “new” bit of line, plus the frequent stops west of Colne

SELRAP don’t understand geography or connectivity. We want loads of new stations for a ‘fast stopping’ service interlinked with a load of freights which are diverted away from a quicker route feeding into one of the busiest 2 track railways in the country crossing all 6 lines of one of the busiest station throats in the country. I tell you, SELRAP are cuckoo.

That’s when they remember to acknowledge that there is an existing line from Leeds to Burnley, of course!

SELRAP will never do that as it weakens their already weak case.

It’s a “motorway to nowhere” because population density north of Colne is rather low

It was supposed to form the M650 joining it to the M606. Sad it never happened apart from the A650 relief road from Cottingley Bar to Crosshills.

 

[fishwomp]

Is there Something in the air? We seem to have threads about the GCR/ Lewes to Uckfield/ Colne to Skipton all at the same time (as well as a couple of general reopening ones discussing the merits of Woodhead etc)… must be Basket Case Season?

Yes, but we can't reopen Woodhead as the tunnels are secretly being used to store the strategic reserve of steam locos.. (the National Grid cables is a cover story)

What jobs in Leeds are the good people of Nelson going to get, given the commuting costs?

How many times a month will they want to head to Harvey Nicks?

.. and how many of the catchment area for Colne and Nelson stations would be happy enough to, or already, drive to Steeton and Silsden or Keighley (10 miles) to commute to Leeds. Not all the catchment area live within walking distance of the town centres so would in any event start their commute by car, and +25 miles detour via Skipton on the train versus +10 miles by car to Keighley,.. guess which will be quicker.

 

[bluenoxid]

… but there aren't many other ideas around.

There are options, but they cannot be shortened down to a simple phrase like Skipton-Colne.

Unfortunately, Colne is a pinchpoint on the road network. A link road from north of Foulridge to the end of the M65 would remove a good chunk of the vehicle traffic from the main routes pushing through Colne. This would enable work to shift the A56 from being a through route to being an access road for the majority of traffic. Then interventions like bus gates and bus lanes become a more reasonable option.

The area would benefit from a standardised low fare and standardised marketing model for buses.

For rail, there are options. I would like to see what has the better case (Leeds or Manchester via either Rochdale or Bolton) and boost as appropriate. I am not under the impression that tram-train will bring that many benefits. A passing loop on the line would allow for an increase in service but I think buses would deliver a better case. Is the loop east of Rose Grove passenger rated? Looks ideal for a place to put trains out of the way if there are delays.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes, but we can't reopen Woodhead as the tunnels are secretly being used to store the strategic reserve of steam locos.. (the National Grid cables is a cover story)

Really?! What exactly have you been imbibing?

 

[Neptune]

.. and how many of the catchment area for Colne and Nelson stations would be happy enough to, or already, drive to Steeton and Silsden or Keighley (10 miles) to commute to Leeds. Not all the catchment area live within walking distance of the town centres so would in any event start their commute by car, and +25 miles detour via Skipton on the train versus +10 miles by car to Keighley,.. guess which will be quicker.

Yes it just doesn’t fit in with SELRAP’s rhetoric of there being basically no way to leave the area until a train to Skipton reappears when suddenly the area will magically become thriving and prosperous (probably gaining city status at King Charles III silver jubilee).

I can drive to Colne in around half an hour from where I live via the A650 and A6068. A train via Skipton to my local station would take around 45-50 minutes and it takes 20 minutes to commute to Leeds by train from there so from Colne (not Nelson) it would take around 65 to 70 minutes and that’s if they can find the paths. More likely you’d be looking at needing to pad around Skipton and Leeds pushing it up to nearer 80 minutes. SELRAP’s claim of a service to Leeds in less than an hour is grasping at a figure that looks attractive to those with the purse strings (although it’s obviously proved not to be as they’re no nearer now than in any of the previous 53 years since the line closed).

As I’ve said, SELRAP should just learn when to give up on the link to Skipton, be realistic and actually lobby for improvements for what they already have. They should try and seek improvements on the branch itself to speed things up a little (maybe a passing loop to allow for 2tph, 1 for Manchester and 1 for Preston) 2tph over Copy Pit to Leeds/Bradford connencting at Rose Grove (with the right service choice of the 2nd train they could by default have direct links to York & Hull). They probably wouldn’t manage the lot but may have a chance of some of it because removing buffer stops, building bridges and laying track just ain’t happening.

The problem is these people seem to go the opposite way to the way they should. I fully expect this current plan to fail and they then put forward a High Speed 4 track line allowing direct links between Dublin and Amsterdam via the Isle of Man (they’ve progressed from a line to Skipton to link connect with services onward to West Yorkshire to the current ridiculous plan).

 

[Bald Rick]

the M65 is probably the least congested motorway in England.

The M45 says hello


One thing this, and many other ‘old chestnut’ proposals have is a small number of committed / devoted advocates who spend much of their free time on the proposal. Usually, but not exclusively, reasonably intelligent retired gentlemen. They really, really believe in the proposal, and because of that tend towards confirmation bias. In other words all the good bits are talked up, but the “challenges” sidelined or even ignored.

Even if presented with strong evidence that the proposal is not worthwhile they will then argue that ‘the system‘ (ie transport assessment process) is wrong.

The Restoring Your Railway project has done a good job of flushing a lot of these projects out, albeit the ‘Dear John’ letter that most received was in my view not strong enough!

 

[bluenoxid]

Because the proposals are usually being championed by a small group, I tend to find that it all goes to radio silence very suddenly. Usually, the reason is the deterioration or passing of one of the vocal members of the person/small group leading.