Collapse of the bulk load freight business ?

[HowardGWR]

Actually Bristol has been consistently handling 2 trains a day from either Felixstowe, Tilbury or London Gateway for the last few weeks. The terminal was brought back into use for a specific flow and has limited capacity.

Yes, indeed, let's not get confused with our 'Bristol' services. We have Portbury Docks and Avonmouth Docks that do very well with shipping traffic and we have the Liberty Colliery (as was) depot in Bristol proper, that has the traffic just mentioned. Bristol has a lot of industry, but it's mainly SME specialist stuff and otherwise it's chiefly a service economy.

 

[cogload]

The population of the Bristol region is much bigger of course - probably around the 750,000 mark.

Inverness has a population of 72,000 (yes 72,000) and Aberdeen 230,000 - both significantly smaller than Cornwall and Devon.

My point is valid - Devon and Cornwall are big enough markets and remote enough in terms of rail mileage to have viable intermodal rail traffic.

Your point isn't valid as it takes no account of where the traffic is origianlly sourced from. And neither is it valid as it takes no account of the ability of the rail infrastructure to handle the traffic.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You have just beaten me to making note of this very matter, having once again read the other thread where this has been a point of thread discussion.

The problem is this will simply be at the expense of something else i.e. coal or biomass from a different port so I certainly don't think it can be made to count as new business won by the railway.

 

[muddythefish]

Your point isn't valid as it takes no account of where the traffic is origianlly sourced from. And neither is it valid as it takes no account of the ability of the rail infrastructure to handle the traffic.

Well, if Inverness can justify a supermarket train or two to the low population in the Highlands, then Devon and Cornwall certainly can.
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Because the councils are much more likely to grant permission for a vast distribution centre IF it is rail connected

... but if the distribution companies have no intention of using rail then it is a scam and a con.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they could build small terminals at each of their regional distribution centres, could RM use rail more for their second class mail? Don't know if rail would be viable for their first class mail because of time constraints

 

[paul1609]

Well, if Inverness can justify a supermarket train or two to the low population in the Highlands, then Devon and Cornwall certainly can.

Its a different scenario, Inverness is the only major centre of population in the Highlands, In Devon And Cornwall Torbay is 20miles from Exeter, Plymouth 50 miles from Exeter and the railway past Exeter is very slow compared to the road network.
If you wanted a freight distribution centre it would need to be around Tiverton Parkway for easy access to the road network. Tiverton just isn't far enough away from the midlands or south east for rail to be viable.

 

[The Planner]

Was going to ask, what large logistic centres are already in the South West? As mentioned if you want to get it off trains and onwards via road, then you are looking at Exeter as a limit for the A30/A38. For anything box wise that comes via Southampton I would imagine road is the quicker and cheaper option.

 

[paul1609]

Tiverton Parkway to Plymouth by road is quicker because of the proximity to the M5 than Exeter St Davids thats why the rail replacement buses generally run from there. In truth its quicker than the Normal Rail service!

 

[HSTEd]

Freight is doing well at the moment. There are 80 trains per week more than last year. Biomass will yield more movements. Liverpool docks will be sending 10 trainloads per day via Hebden Bridge to Drax from January.

Until the biomass plant closes down [most if it is aging ex-coal plant converted to squeeze more life out of it] and is replaced by new biomass plant - built directly adjacent to the dock.

 

[matchmaker]

The Central Belt has fairly high density of population, maybe three and a half million people - it has power stations/ steel mills etc too.

Not for much longer, I'm afraid. :cry::cry:

 

[HowardGWR]

Was going to ask, what large logistic centres are already in the South West? As mentioned if you want to get it off trains and onwards via road, then you are looking at Exeter as a limit for the A30/A38. For anything box wise that comes via Southampton I would imagine road is the quicker and cheaper option.

Not to forget either, the loading gauge problem from Southampton to Exeter and beyond that does not allow large boxes. Also, once the A303 to Ilminster and A358 from Ilminster to Taunton is dual, the journey from Southampton can take place on totally dual road via M27, M3, A34, A303, A358 and M5 to Exeter and beyond. That would relieve a lot of smaller roads through environmentally sensitive areas.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was going to ask, what large logistic centres are already in the South West? As mentioned if you want to get it off trains and onwards via road, then you are looking at Exeter as a limit for the A30/A38. For anything box wise that comes via Southampton I would imagine road is the quicker and cheaper option.

Could Worting junction be modified to enable trains to join the West of England Main Line without reversing? if it could, would it be worth doing along with making the West of England Main Line double track all the way?

 

[The Planner]

Not for freight on its own no as the numbers would never ever stack up.

 

[WessexEclectic]

Is there any China clay traffic still running?

ISTR also the ships out of Fowey stopped running a while back.

 

[paul1609]

Not to forget either, the loading gauge problem from Southampton to Exeter and beyond that does not allow large boxes. Also, once the A303 to Ilminster and A358 from Ilminster to Taunton is dual, the journey from Southampton can take place on totally dual road via M27, M3, A34, A303, A358 and M5 to Exeter and beyond. That would relieve a lot of smaller roads through environmentally sensitive areas.

I did my first journey for a while up the A358 and A303 a few weekends ago from a HRA meeting in Lynton i was disappointed with the lack of progress it seems ages ago the dualling was announced.

 

[D1009]

Is there any China clay traffic still running?

ISTR also the ships out of Fowey stopped running a while back.

From what I can see from marinetraffic.com and Realtime Trains, ships are still coming into Fowey and traffic is being moved from there to Goonbarrow and Parkandillack by rail, but there is no rail movement forward at present.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Not to forget either, the loading gauge problem from Southampton to Exeter and beyond that does not allow large boxes. Also, once the A303 to Ilminster and A358 from Ilminster to Taunton is dual, the journey from Southampton can take place on totally dual road via M27, M3, A34, A303, A358 and M5 to Exeter and beyond. That would relieve a lot of smaller roads through environmentally sensitive areas.

Would it be worth the cost of enlarging the loading gauge on Southampton-Exeter to allow the larger boxes and for potential future electrification with overhead?

 

[furnessvale]

I don't see where the traffic is going to come from to generate train loads of containers from a port for somewhere like Telford or Radlett.

Admittedly some new intermodal terminals have failed or are subject to a slow start, but substitute Daventry for either of those names and you will see that all is not black and white.

 

[The Planner]

Would it be worth the cost of enlarging the loading gauge on Southampton-Exeter to allow the larger boxes and for potential future electrification with overhead?

The loading gauge would essentially be a freebie on the back of electrification as part of any alterations of structures, you would do the knitting first, not the freight gauge.

 

[furnessvale]

The problem is this will simply be at the expense of something else i.e. coal or biomass from a different port so I certainly don't think it can be made to count as new business won by the railway.

I am not suggesting you personally are doing this, but it seems a little unfair in one thread to simultaneously claim the reduction in coal carryings as a "loss" in traffic, but not allow the (partial) replacement biomass as a "gain".

Incidentally, other bulk traffics recently announced include three flows by DBS, two of which have substantial "new to rail" elements.
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Until the biomass plant closes down [most if it is aging ex-coal plant converted to squeeze more life out of it] and is replaced by new biomass plant - built directly adjacent to the dock.

Drax has invested over £700m so far on biomass conversion, hardly an end of life minor touch up.

They are studying further conversion to biomass. I think the main issue is ensuring the supply of fuel.

Drax has many years life left in it, and building a new power station of comparable capacity, or even worse in financial terms, several smaller ones, would make £700m look like peanuts.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The loading gauge would essentially be a freebie on the back of electrification as part of any alterations of structures, you would do the knitting first, not the freight gauge.

Indeed, although Scotland seems to be doing things arse about elbow with the Edinburgh Suburban line - W12 clearance in CP5 and then electrification in CP6, unless some money can be found in some of the freight development funds to tie them both together in CP5.

 

[najaB]

Indeed, although Scotland seems to be doing things arse about elbow with the Edinburgh Suburban line...

Not really as a lot of the freight traffic will be diesel anyway as the lines north towards Aberdeen and Inverness won't be electrified until well into CP6 anyway.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Not really as a lot of the freight traffic will be diesel anyway as the lines north towards Aberdeen and Inverness won't be electrified until well into CP6 anyway.

Technically true, but it's another project being carried out in a needlessly complicated way for no good reason.

 

[HowardGWR]

The loading gauge would essentially be a freebie on the back of electrification as part of any alterations of structures, you would do the knitting first, not the freight gauge.

Gosh, my memory is of so many low bridges on the Salisbury / Exeter stretch. It seems to me that it would be just sensible to
a) double and raise bridges
b) electrify
- in one go, or in that order.

 

[Greybeard33]

The problem is this will simply be at the expense of something else i.e. coal or biomass from a different port so I certainly don't think it can be made to count as new business won by the railway.

Well, the rail route from Liverpool to Drax is longer than the coal train routes from the east coast ports. And biomass is less energy dense, and bulkier, than coal, so more trains are needed to generate the same amount of electricity. How is that not new business won by the railway?

 

[HSTEd]

Drax has invested over £700m so far on biomass conversion, hardly an end of life minor touch up.

That £700m is producing nearly two gigawatts electric.
Which is about $540/kW.
Which is very cheap in terms of generating plant, so it could easily be a ten year job or so - especially considering the very generous biomass subsidies avaliable. And that the plant was running out of Large Combustion Directive hours.

They are studying further conversion to biomass. I think the main issue is ensuring the supply of fuel.

And how much subsidy money they are able to wring out of the government in the current dash-for-gas-II climate.

Drax has many years life left in it, and building a new power station of comparable capacity, or even worse in financial terms, several smaller ones, would make £700m look like peanuts.

New plant would be USC type or even gassification combined cycle with 50+% efficiency however, much better than the 80s CEGB-standard generating plant used at Drax.

 

[dk1]

DBS has announced 3 new long term contracts today.

 

[FordFocus]

Out of Hope Cement Works and other quarries by any chance?

 

[dk1]

Out of Hope Cement Works and other quarries by any chance?

http://www.ukhaulier.co.uk/news/fre...er-rail-uk-announces-three-new-contract-wins/

 

[FordFocus]

Thanks. Good to hear.