Codsall - Kidderminster

[AlexS]

Everytime in the past I've looked this up on the National Rail site, it's been a valid (and suggested) routing via Birmingham.

Now it claims to be a multi ticket route. I have no doubt I'd be easily able to use this route, but I'm just confused as to why it's changed now.

 

[John @ home]

Everytime in the past I've looked this up on the National Rail site, it's been a valid (and suggested) routing via Birmingham. ... I'm just confused as to why it's changed now.

My reading of National Routeing Guide map WM is that Codsall - Wolverhampton - Walsall - Perry Barr - Birmingham - Smethwick - Kidderminster is a valid route, but that doubling back between Smethwick and Birmingham would not normally be allowed.

However, there is a helpful easement:
030055 Journeys from south of Droitwich Spa or north of Dudley Port may doubleback between Birmingham New street, Smethwick Rolfe Street and Smethwick Galton Bridge. This easement applies in both directions and on Saturdays and Sundays only.

Perhaps you previously checked this fare for travel at a weekend, and are now planning weekday travel.

John

 

[yorkie]

Out of interest, does it allow you to do this on trains that don't call at Smethwick Galton Bridge between Wolverhampton and Birmingham?

 

[John @ home]

Out of interest, does it allow you to do this on trains that don't call at Smethwick Galton Bridge between Wolverhampton and Birmingham?

I don't think the calling pattern affects the validity. As far as I can tell, it's OK to double back between Smethwick and Birmingham on Saturdays and Sundays, but barred on Mondays to Fridays (presumably, this includes bank holidays since they are not mentioned in the easement). This applies whether the train is non-stop or all stations.

John

 

[yorkie]

Oh I agree, it doesn't affect validity, but thetrainline etc. don't know if a train passes through Smethwick Galton Bridge as it's not a timing point

I think that may have changed though.

For example I once booked some people a ticket from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Stirling on the Chieftain, and thetrainline accepted it because it doesn't realise you are double-backing through Larbert. Try that with trains that do call at Larbert and it won't let you do it.

This trick no longer works.

So, I suspect it's nothing to do with the specific journey Codsall-Kidderminster but the booking systems have got smarter.

 

[AlexS]

I suspect I'm right in saying that they can't PF me for being off route with a valid ticket, only excess it?

So I might just take the chance effing it via New Street because changing at Smethwick is really not awfully convenient.

I have a valid piece of frog to get me through the RPIs at the barriers at any rate for another journey with a valid break.

 

[dan_atki]

Correct - they can only excess your fare, and not issue a penalty fare for being off route.

 

[yorkie]

Oh dear - that can of worms again!

See:-

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=penalty+%22off+route%22+site%3Arailforums.co.uk&meta=

I'm with dan atki and Tom C on this issue and I don't agree with hairyhandedfool and jv3531.

But rather than argue about it again (please no....!!!) just read previous topics, and decide for yourself.

 

[dan_atki]

I'm with dan atki and Tom C on this issue and I don't agree with hairyhandedfool and jv3531.

I'm only going on what Tom C said as it's his line of expertise .

If the journey seems reasonable via BHM (and if it is showing up on journey planners with the same fare you have no reason to suspect it's not reasonable).

Without looking it up formally and giving my take on it, BHM isn't a million miles away (which East Grinstead was in Tom C's post where the off-route/beyond validity debate started) and if that is the quickest route (not necessarily the shortest) and you can explain what you're doing there then many inspectors will agree that it is reasonable.

Please forgive me for using 'reasonable' against 'valid', however, as the two are completely different - not that I'm commenting on the validity though - having not checked properly (either RG, maps, nor timetables) I can't comment on validity.

What I would say though is if it is deemed invalid by the inspector, ask them what they would deem to be a valid route for the journey, as you thought you were travelling on a legitimate route.

Done a quick search on NXEC, however, and it shows the same journey time and same fare for changing at both Wolverhampton and Birmingham. If it is deemed you are off route, the excess given should be £0.00 (can Avantix Mobile specify via stations?).

 

[AlexS]

It's considered a perfectly reasonable route at weekends, and prior to opening of Galton Bridge station, always was a perfectly reasonable route (the only one in fact!).

Risking a delay on the local to New Street with a 5 minute change to the appropriate train at Galton Bridge isn't really my cup of tea, neither is sitting at Smethwick Galton Bridge for 35 minutes which is the alternative option!

I've never been turned down on this route before and I've done it on weekdays before.

On the other hand, depending on the TOC, I'd imagine most staff would have a problem pointing to Codsall on a map (hardly a pinnacle of civilisation being a local stop on what is generally known round here as 'The Salop') - I've caught a train from Wolverhampton before and it was a Euston guard on the 390 who claimed he'd never heard of Codsall station in his life - and was quite surprised when I said it was about 4 miles north of where we were now.

 

[glynn80]

What ticket would they excess it to?? Surely if it can't be excessed then you are not off route at all. I thought Tom C was refferring to when there is say London to Manchester Route AP and Route Chesterfield. If you went via Chesterfield with the AP (not normally a valid route) they couldn't PF you just excess you up to a Route Chesterfield??

 

[yorkie]

Yes if they are lenient, or strictly speaking it should be a new ticket.

AP doesn't have any value if not used correctly, sadly

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm with dan atki and Tom C on this issue and I don't agree with hairyhandedfool and jv3531.

Just to correct this statement, when I found out Tom C actually did Penalty Fares I did say I would accept he was right about being off route. However, I stand by the fact that some tickets, in certain circumstances, cannot be excessed.

Anyway, as Yorkie says, lets not go there.

 

[glynn80]

Yes if they are lenient, or strictly speaking it should be a new ticket.

AP doesn't have any value if not used correctly, sadly

?? When I say AP I mean Any Permitted as this statement confuses me?

 

[yorkie]

OK ignore that, AP usually means "Advance purchase".

It's often used in the Route for adance purchase tickets, e.g. York to Aberystwyth Route "AP Manchester", or York to Penzance "Route AP Londn Reading"

 

[AlexS]

Travelled via Birmingham New Street and Moor Street both ways, had ticket checks on all trains and no one, including the RPIs on the gate line at New Street, and the RPIs at Moor Street, batted an eyelid - except for the RPIs at Moor Street who asked when I walked through with my mcdonalds breakfast (I was in a hurry) if I knew whether Mcdonalds would do them a burger and chips while they were still doing the breakfast menu!