Cock-up at York tonight

[stuartmoss]

Well I've just got in having gone for the 22:11 from York to Horsforth. Before setting off, the two car train was sent right down to the end of platform 8 in front of a lot more units, there were people waiting for the train at the other units, and nobody staff wise had thought to tell them to go right down the platform and around the bend, the train was so far down, only the back doors were open, I had to point out to the guard that there were passengers 70 metres away out of sight waiting for the train in the wrong place.

The train set off on time, but was delayed just outside York station so that a very long Network Rail ballast train (the ones with MFSD on them) could cross it's pass, and then very cheekily gazump us to the Harrogate line! How could that be allowed to happen? We stood just near the NRM for 50 minutes before being told we were going to Harrogate and then the train would terminate.

The guard was very apologetic and gave us all postcards to send to Northern, and he did make sure we got taxis from Harrogate, but the lights on the stations between York and Harrogate (apart from Knaresborough) were not working (auto timers) and there were tourists on the train who didn't have a clue which station we were at. Luckily I overheard them mention Cattal and told them when we were there and they just got off in time, but neither driver or guard announced any of the stations.

How could the ballast train be allowed to cause such disruption? Can anyone explain to me how this can happen, and who would make the decision?

BTW if anyone wants to know why I didn't go down the mainline and change at Leeds:

1. It's quicker going down the Harrogate line (usually).
2. I like to support my local branch line.
3. I had a Northern Duo and I don't think they're valid on the mainline anyway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I certainly would like to hear the official reason given concerning the ballast train and the disruption caused by it.

 

[Crossover]

Interesting, a quick look suggests your train was actually cancelled at York and was indeed next reported 47 minutes late at Skelton Junction and cancelled at Harrogate. Delay reason given is that it was due to a signalling problem......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It also reported at one of the junctions outside Leeds so may well have run the line anyway, albeit as an ECS move

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I certainly would like to hear the official reason given concerning the ballast train and the disruption caused by it.

Probably because somebody in York Signalling Centre wasn't paying attention. The quality of regulation at anywhere controlled by York is shocking. This is mainly due to the use of ARS (Automatic Route Setting) which seems to make the signalmen lazy and careless as most of the time they are not watching what is going on.

 

[wensley]

Probably because somebody in York Signalling Centre wasn't paying attention. The quality of regulation at anywhere controlled by York is shocking. This is mainly due to the use of ARS (Automatic Route Setting) which seems to make the signalmen lazy and careless as most of the time they are not watching what is going on.

Bout par for the course then really! I will second that York's regulations is terrible at times, certain shifts are notably worse that others. My favourite cock-up I can recall from this year was when a GBRf coal train was travelling on the Down Slow to the south of Longlands Jnc. The route was set up for the Down Longlands Loop and the level crossings at Boroughbridge Road and Romanby Road had come down to road traffic. The train stopped at Longlands and after a delayed of betweeen 5-10mins the level crossings went up and the coal train came through Northallerton on the Down Fast : the signalman had set the route incorrectly.

Another time, a week or two ago, a DBS light 67 approached the station on the Down Fast but had a danger signal at the head of the platform, despite a green aspect showing at the next signal (Castle Hills). The loco was halted and after a minute or so the driver went to speak to the 'box. The signaller explained that he had been busy with another train and had 'forgotten'!!!

Just some of the wonderful *cough cough* regulation that can be noted under York's jurisdiction.

 

[GB]

Question, have any of you that are critising actually done the job of a signaller at such a location or had to put up with the shoddy ARS system?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Question, have any of you that are critising actually done the job of a signaller at such a location or had to put up with the shoddy ARS system?

Quite. Often ARSE sets the route before the signaller has time to intervene.

 

[Schnellzug]

Should that be any excuse? can it not be overridden? Surely the responsibility must be with the signalman ultimately, like the captain of a plane.

And no, i don't acknowledge the existence of Signallers, unless they're in the Royal Signals.

 

[Anvil1984]

This had nothing to do with a freight train or York Box. There was a points failure at Skelton Jn preventing trains from using the Harrogate line. There was a freight train but that carried on right up the ECML. The doors on the front coach were locked out of use solely as they were off the platform, the doors in the rear coach worked fine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Luckily I had finished an hour or two before
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The service was restarted at Harrogate using one of the spare sets which stable there overnight

Interesting, a quick look suggests your train was actually cancelled at York and was indeed next reported 47 minutes late at Skelton Junction and cancelled at Harrogate. Delay reason given is that it was due to a signalling problem......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It also reported at one of the junctions outside Leeds so may well have run the line anyway, albeit as an ECS move

 

[DarloRich]

If it was the conveyor wagons with MFSD on them it sounds like the HOBC. There are a couple of reasons why it could have been sent first:

1) Ugrent on site requirement - ie make sure the renewal work is finished on time (This is a key bit of kit!)
2) Length of train - IF it was the HOBC and it was operating at full length it MIGHT not be able to fit inside any loops and so needs to keep going
3) ARS
4) Signal centre mistake
5) Train failure?
6) Points failure?Signal Failure

Very easy to complain without any information.

 

[Anvil1984]

Announcements were made when arriving at some stops but the ones that were missed were because the guard had to keep liasing with control and also his driver regarding passenger and indeed their own onward travelling arrangements post Harrogate. They can't use the phone whilst doing door duties so ir can be a strung out affair

 

[tynesider]

Delay was due to failure of 832 points, Skelton Junction

 

[stuartmoss]

Thanks for responses, there are evidently some posters above who are very in the know so I won't dispute what they are stating as facts. But from where I was sitting the ballast train clearly looked like it was going down the Harrogate line, although it was dark, and it is highly coincidental that having being held up for the ballast train to cross our path (which it definitely did), that the points also failed at the same time.

With regards to only the back doors being open because the front ones were off the platform edge - that clearly demonstrates what an odd place the train was left in, in the first place, rather than the usual platform 11 for this service.

Whilst the guard was operating under stressful conditions, he remained courteous throughout, but I'm sure that somehow he could have shouted out the station names for the ones that didn't have lights on.

I'm not convinced that the train continued as an operating service to Leeds, as we were all taken off and put in taxis, and I also clearly heard the Supervisor at Harrogate ask the driver to shunt the train after he had got off it. I'm not sure what he meant by that though, although the driver left his bags in the Supervisor's office, so I presume he didn't have to shunt it very far from where it was, otherwise he would have taken his bags with him.

 

[DarloRich]

where did you get held? Were you on the up or down fast? Did the ballast train come through the station?

EDIT - not trying to cuase trouble just trying to work out what was going on in attempt to help OP

 

[stuartmoss]

We were held just outside the NRM, I presume at Skelton Junction, I was on a train bound towards Leeds via the Harrogate line, it departed from the very North end of Platform 8. The ballast train came through the station traveling Northbound to my right (in the direction of travel), then we were held up shortly after departure, and after we had set off it was on my left but traveling slower, it seemed to be heading for what I thought was the Harrogate line, particularly as it was now to my left and we were also heading for the Harrogate line.

 

[Crossover]

RE: restarting the service at Harrogate, that would have departed Harrogate at the scheduled time under a different headcode so you would have known nothing about it.

The reason I said I thought your train had continued ECS was because it reported at Armitage(?) Junction 13 down but no log everywhere else. It may, of course, been a blip in the system and it may have been shunted for stabling at Harrogate.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Should that be any excuse? can it not be overridden? Surely the responsibility must be with the signalman ultimately, like the captain of a plane.

And no, i don't acknowledge the existence of Signallers, unless they're in the Royal Signals.

I think you're being harsh. ARS should work as designed, that is, it should not require micro management from the signalman. IECCs were designed to take the bread and butter work away from the signalman enabling them to control a lager area than a PSB with manual route setting. There is far more to signalling than just running trains. Where as even as little as 5 or 10 years ago P-Way and S and T would generally work with lookout protection, they now require blocks for many more activties. This takes up a lot of a signalman's time.

 

[bluenoxid]

I'm not convinced that the train continued as an operating service to Leeds, as we were all taken off and put in taxis, and I also clearly heard the Supervisor at Harrogate ask the driver to shunt the train after he had got off it. I'm not sure what he meant by that though, although the driver left his bags in the Supervisor's office, so I presume he didn't have to shunt it very far from where it was, otherwise he would have taken his bags with him.

FTLOI

It didn't.

Another Driver (and guard) got another train that was parked at Harrogate and ran the "service" from Harrogate to Leeds in the existing service path. The train you were on was stopped at Harrogate and the driver shunted it into another position within Harrogate Station.

 

[Anvil1984]

Yep Blue. The service restarted with new crew and stock from Harrogate but is feasible it left late by the time it was shunted to platform etc. The original train from York as you say was terminated at Harrogate then put in the sidings for the evening and crew taxied back to base.

The freight train definately did not go down the Harrogate line most likely it went in front of the 2211 and then headed for the slow lines of ECML, remember just before Skelton Jn from where the freight line / avioider the line goes to 4 track