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Coach Seats v Train seats

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JonathanH

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Are they more stringent than on aircraft though? I mean even EasyJet have seats that are far more comfortable than most modern train seating!
Aircraft seats are designed to be fairly flimsy and move with passengers in an incident. Again, this argument come back to cushioning. The design of seat frame is not an issue, it is how the cushion and foam are designed that sits in that frame.

Are the slimline seats now fitted by Easyjet really that comfortable? What is the specific feature that makes them more comfortable?
 
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Comfortable train seats are perfectly possible, as shown by the GWR refurbishment, here's a 158...
Should be noted that those look like the original 1991 seats, albeit with the plastic recoated and the covers replaced. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual cushions date from 1999 when Northern Spirit replaced them. Should remember that one of the primary reasons for thin cushions is usually weight - which equals lower energy / fuel costs ...or insurance - mitigating fire risk equals lower premium costs.
 

Bletchleyite

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Comfortable train seats are perfectly possible, as shown by the GWR refurbishment, here's a 158: https://www.flickr.com/photos/camperdown/43359050284
43359050284_2941bd8af1_b.jpg

The originals weren't bad (if a bit tight on legroom) but that refurb, also replicated in blue on Northern, is an absolute abomination. The cushions are too thick and too hard so you sit too high (clouting the table with your knees) and the legroom is terrible, far worse than the original.

Maybe equivalent to a road coach though, which tend to lack legroom. Coaches could really do with thinner seat backs - a thick back isn't automatically more comfortable, unlike a thick base.
 

Bletchleyite

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Should be noted that those look like the original 1991 seats, albeit with the plastic recoated and the covers replaced. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual cushions date from 1999 when Northern Spirit replaced them. Should remember that one of the primary reasons for thin cushions is usually weight - which equals lower energy / fuel costs ...or insurance - mitigating fire risk equals lower premium costs.

Those are new cushions.
 

vuzzeho

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Are they more stringent than on aircraft though? I mean even EasyJet have seats that are far more comfortable than most modern train seating!
According to a designer friend who's worked on various prominent train classes - yes! But that's no excuse for the uncomfortable seats. That's what I'm getting at.
 

Bletchleyite

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The last time I was on a Rail Replacement Coach, it was one with 3+2 seating usually used for schools traffic. I have never had such an unpleasant journey on a train, even on a packed Pacer with the Merseytravel refurb seats.
Of course, such a vehicle would not be used on a scheduled coach service (and in all honesty should be barred from RRB work too, not least because the seatbelts are too short for many adults) but there's an element of "pot luck" with both coaches and trains insofar as what vehicle will actually turn up for your journey.

3+2 coaches are I understand banned from rail replacement by some TOCs and will be sent away without payment if they show up.

Personally I think it should be illegal to carry adults in any road vehicle with a seat width under about 43.5cm (the width of the seats on a Class 730/0 which are only just wide enough for most adults) because it isn't possible to use the seat belt correctly for most adults in those seats. Those coaches, designed for schoolchildren, should be fitted with a few rows of 2+2 at the front for the teachers.
 

JonathanH

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The originals weren't bad (if a bit tight on legroom) but that refurb, also replicated in blue on Northern, is an absolute abomination. The cushions are too thick and too hard so you sit too high (clouting the table with your knees) and the legroom is terrible, far worse than the original.
The deeper cushions fitted by Northern on 158752-158759 were indeed an abomination as they were too firm and too deep, and, as you say, meant you sat too high. The design used by other operators was more forgiving and not quite so deep, improving the comfort relative to the original seat cushions, which were prone to collapse.
 

Bletchleyite

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The deeper cushions fitted by Northern on 158752-158759 were indeed an abomination as they were too firm and too deep. The design used by other operators was more forgiving and not quite so deep, improving the comfort relative to the original seats.

I've been on several of the GWR ones and it is still a problem. The cushions are hard and about twice the depth of the originals. It's one extreme or the other sometimes! :)

Regarding 156s, the Richmond seats in the ex Regional Railways North East units must be the worst seat since the Class 720, totally unsupportive with collapsed cushions and broken armrests. Really need replacing, but given that the units haven't got long left I doubt they ever will be. With such a poor quality product it's no surprise the company didn't last.
 

zwk500

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The originals weren't bad (if a bit tight on legroom) but that refurb, also replicated in blue on Northern, is an absolute abomination. The cushions are too thick and too hard so you sit too high (clouting the table with your knees) and the legroom is terrible, far worse than the original.

Maybe equivalent to a road coach though, which tend to lack legroom. Coaches could really do with thinner seat backs - a thick back isn't automatically more comfortable, unlike a thick base.
I'll take those seats over an IET any day. I travel Bristol-cardiff for work regularly and try and get the Portsmouth trains if I can.

They may not be perfect but I find them perfectly comfortable, far from an abomination.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The deeper cushions fitted by Northern on 158752-158759 were indeed an abomination as they were too firm and too deep, and, as you say, meant you sat too high. The design used by other operators was more forgiving and not quite so deep, improving the comfort relative to the original seat cushions, which were prone to collapse.
The thicker cushions in the centre cars were in fact fitted by Northern Spirit back in the late 90s (obviously the cushions will have been replaced a few times since then, but that was the first attempt at making 158s somewhat suitable for a quasi-intercity service). In my opinion they're the comfiest standard class seats on the railway by a country mile. You're entitled to your own opinion but "abomination" is just a tad hyperbolic, don't you think?

The so-called "ironing boards" aren't so bad if your journey is under an hour, longer than that and they start to get a bit uncomfortable. They do encourage better posture though- something I appreciate as I have a tendency to "slouch" a bit.
 

Bletchleyite

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The thicker cushions in the centre cars were in fact fitted by Northern Spirit back in the late 90s (obviously the cushions will have been replaced a few times since then, but that was the first attempt at making 158s somewhat suitable for a quasi-intercity service). In my opinion they're the comfiest standard class seats on the railway by a country mile. You're entitled to your own opinion but "abomination" is just a tad hyperbolic, don't you think?

Do the centre cars have different cushions to the end cars? The end cars are new cushions which are hard and too thick, and definitely are not the Northern Spirit fitted ones which were very soft.

The so-called "ironing boards" aren't so bad if your journey is under an hour, longer than that and they start to get a bit uncomfortable. They do encourage better posture though- something I appreciate as I have a tendency to "slouch" a bit.

I have personally done some very long journeys on these in multiple forms e.g. Southern Electrostars (MKC-East Croydon which was heading for 2 hours), Windermere-Manchester etc and find them absolutely fine if basic. Not the best seat, but certainly not bad, and the excellent legroom is a bonus (resulting from the thin backs).
 

Craig2601

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Have you ever used a National Express coach in the UK to compare it against routes with IETs? The coach is far more comfortable and relaxing than an IET which is the primary intercity train.
Many people (including myself) get travel sick, and I find this is particularly the case on a coach. Throw in lack of legroom, flimsy tray tables that barely support a coffee (and I find totally unsuitable for a laptop), chemical toilets (if even available) and lack of opportunity to stretch your legs. A coach also tends to be slower and doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) offer delay repay.

The real benefit of a coach in my opinion would be the price, and perhaps opportunity to recline alongside a more pleasant travel experience when dark (as the lights can be more easily dimmed). However, I would only really consider a coach if the price was significantly cheaper due to my points above.
 

FrontSideBus

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I suppose it depends on what type of coach you travel on. I would personally say that coach seats are on par with any first class seats on a train but then my only experience of long distance coach travel is when I go on a cruise and travel on one of Ellisons or Eavesway executive coaches! Once it was the same vehicle that LFC use!
 

Bletchleyite

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I suppose it depends on what type of coach you travel on. I would personally say that coach seats are on par with any first class seats on a train but then my only experience of long distance coach travel is when I go on a cruise and travel on one of Ellisons or Eavesway executive coaches! Once it was the same vehicle that LFC use!

The only coach seats on a par with first class rail in my view are those on 2+1 seated coaches in places like Spain. A 2+2 layout is never true first class - it does exist on rail but is an utter sham wherever it does, e.g. SWR where in my view Standard is better (more legroom), same with the former WMT first class. The seats are too narrow in 2+2 and there is no opportunity to have a seat that is both window and aisle. The actual comfort of the seat may be up there, but to me the 1 side is and added legroom are the reason for upgrading, and no UK coach (bar football team super luxury ones) offers that.

You do mention the one LFC use, though - is that an exception and seated to 2+1 with at least 35" of seat pitch? The Spanish 2+1 ones are like that - if you got those in the UK I would seriously consider coach travel - but there isn't much of a market for premium coach travel because that market tends to go for rail in the UK - it only works in Spain because RENFE isn't interested in providing the frequency and capacity for which the demand exists, as well as countries like India and South East Asian countries where the rail network is either significantly under capacity (India) or poorly developed (most of South East Asia). In the UK coach is marketed primarily as a budget option and secondarily as a more "hand held" type option for older and younger people (mainly NatEx are in this market rather than Flix).
 
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David M

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Plus the typically terrible road coach toilet if there is one. Insufficient room to swing a cat, and the blue chemical additive solution can be overpowering. The coach rocks and sways as you attempt to use the loo.
Not going to hugely disagree BUT everyone using the toilet on a coach should sit down. Part of the reason they're often less than clean is men determined to stay standing. Some operators have signs saying please sit, maybe all of them, I don't know.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not going to hugely disagree BUT everyone using the toilet on a coach should sit down. Part of the reason they're often less than clean is men determined to stay standing. Some operators have signs saying please sit, maybe all of them, I don't know.

Often legroom is so poor that taller people can't! Some have urinals, so that can't be standard, though.
 

notadriver

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3+2 coaches are I understand banned from rail replacement by some TOCs and will be sent away without payment if they show up.

Personally I think it should be illegal to carry adults in any road vehicle with a seat width under about 43.5cm (the width of the seats on a Class 730/0 which are only just wide enough for most adults) because it isn't possible to use the seat belt correctly for most adults in those seats. Those coaches, designed for schoolchildren, should be fitted with a few rows of 2+2 at the front for the teachers.

The standard of rail replacement vehicles has improved but it seems any old rubbish can still turn up at times. An insult to train passengers. In addition the rail replacement drivers sometimes wear jeans and drive aggressively with no customer service skills.
 

Bletchleyite

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The standard of rail replacement vehicles has improved but it seems any old rubbish can still turn up at times. An insult to train passengers. In addition the rail replacement drivers sometimes wear jeans and drive aggressively with no customer service skills.

I don't care how they dress (TBH the scruffiest thing I've ever seen on the railway or to do with it is the present Northern uniform, particularly how it is often worn with ill fitting sizing and cheap looking trousers/shorts) but I would agree that the standard of driving and customer service does sometimes leave a bit to be desired. The difficulty is that with a shortage of accessible coaches (which the railway is required to use by law) they can't be picky.
 

notadriver

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I don't care how they dress (TBH the scruffiest thing I've ever seen on the railway or to do with it is the present Northern uniform, particularly how it is often worn with ill fitting sizing and cheap looking trousers/shorts) but I would agree that the standard of driving and customer service does sometimes leave a bit to be desired. The difficulty is that with a shortage of accessible coaches (which the railway is required to use by law) they can't be picky.

I think impressions are important. I’m often do rail replacement and whilst I have no control over the vehicle I drive I can dress smartly - tie , shirt and trousers, be approachable and friendly and drive considerately. I’m the model RR driver
 

EJD799

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Have you ever used a National Express coach in the UK to compare it against routes with IETs? The coach is far more comfortable and relaxing than an IET which is the primary intercity train.
Not sure if it is true, but I found the seats of the LNER Class 801 to be more comfortable than those of the GWR Class 800/802.
 

zwk500

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Not sure if it is true, but I found the seats of the LNER Class 801 to be more comfortable than those of the GWR Class 800/802.
I have travelled quite a bit on both and find that individual seats vary quite a lot. I spent one journey from King's Cross to York with a screw very noticeable in the seat poking me. All IET seats I have had have been less comfortable than the NatEx coach although I will mention I've used NatEx much less than the trains.
 

30907

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No-one has made the point that buses need more padded seating to absorb the bumps of the road surface (he says, after sampling a London Superloop for an hour).

(That's not to defend rail seating.)
 

notadriver

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I would also say the new seat covers on 803s are good.

I’ve nearly fallen out of bus seats because the driver took a bend quick. Is it a bad design of seat - there was little to hold on to.
 

route101

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Has anyone mentioned GWR Hitachi class 800's standard class seats? The fire retarding type foam on the bases of nearly every seat has collapsed and degraded due to use and is now so thin you can feel the metal supports underneath. I lifted the base off one to see what was below and was shocked how little padding there now was. Less than 1cm thickness in places.
My 40 year old local train is more comfortable and I'm only in that for a few minutes, not two hours!
I had the same on LNER last weekend. Could feel the metal.
 

route101

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The 800 series IETs do have great legroom.

The Yutongs that Flixbus have, they have very poor legroom.
 
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