Closing down the Railways?

[zwk500]

Some European countries do actually have blanket electrification and others retain main line steam. I am aware of single figure numbers of steam engines which run twice a year in Switzerland where overhead wires are dismantled for the winter.

The only railway in Europe with a 100% electrification is (AIUI) Switzerland. Belgium and Netherlands come close to 'blanket' electrification but nowhere else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On this thread generally...while this is in the Not Happening(tm) bracket, even if a Serpell style proposal was made, I don't think it would make travel impossible. With greater use of bus and coach lanes on urban roads and motorways, and a network of motorway Coachways (think MK or Handy Cross), bus and coach could provide for the UK's public transport needs, plus air if you need to be there quick.

It'd not be great, though, it's better with the railway, and the effect of that would be hugely more cars on the road.

 

[A0]

On this thread generally...while this is in the Not Happening(tm) bracket, even if a Serpell style proposal was made, I don't think it would make travel impossible. With greater use of bus and coach lanes on urban roads and motorways, and a network of motorway Coachways (think MK or Handy Cross), bus and coach could provide for the UK's public transport needs, plus air if you need to be there quick.

It'd not be great, though, it's better with the railway, and the effect of that would be hugely more cars on the road.

You won't get bus lanes on Motoways again - the M4 one was a disaster both from a capacity use and PR perspective - it wasn't heavily used and became notorious for its use by govt ministers who dreamt up the idea not wishing to sit in the queues with the plebs, the queues their idiotic policy had created.

 

[The Ham]

On this thread generally...while this is in the Not Happening(tm) bracket, even if a Serpell style proposal was made, I don't think it would make travel impossible. With greater use of bus and coach lanes on urban roads and motorways, and a network of motorway Coachways (think MK or Handy Cross), bus and coach could provide for the UK's public transport needs, plus air if you need to be there quick.

It'd not be great, though, it's better with the railway, and the effect of that would be hugely more cars on the road.

Indeed, whilst some would switch from rail to coaches/buses (which would be extra vehicles on the roads anyway) there would be a fair chunk who would switch to cars.

Given how busy GWR services get at peak times, adding an extra 200 cars an hour using the A303 is going to add to the traffic congestion (as the peak GWR times also the to be times when the A303 are the busiest).

Whilst not everyone who uses the GWR services to/through Exeter would then use the A303, although probably enough to may that sort of difference.

It would meaning that all the missing sections of duel carriageways would need to be built to reduce congestion, probably with some of the roundabouts needing to be upgraded.

Of course they would only solve part of the issues which GWR services solve. For instance the trains to St Ives can be very busy and there's not the ability to park that many cars in the town, whilst any buses would be held up in the traffic.

Whilst GWR may be able to be closed down (at a cost) and it be viable (at a cost which was acceptable), if this was repeated across the whole country there would be a lot of places which would need fixing, probably quite quickly (read at quite an expense).

However for any places which are provided with bus services which needed any sort of support, how trusting would we really have that this support would continue?

I for one (especially given the level of cuts over the last 12 years) would be very sceptical that it would be protected. Especially given the level of road building which would also be required.

 

[Howardh]

bus and coach could provide for the UK's public transport needs, plus air if you need to be there quick.

It'd not be great, though, it's better with the railway, and the effect of that would be hugely more cars on the road.

During the current strikes, and the no-strike no-train days, add Avanti, TPE etc, won't a lot of passengers who have switched to the coaches be so fed up with the railways that they won't go back?

Contrary to that though, coaches from Gatwick to London were fully booked up, leaving stranded passengers only a taxi as an alternative, so they would be gagging for the trains!

Anyway, if the railways were closed down, the track beds would still be there to run dedicated coach and bus lanes or trams, so we would move from railway to tyreway! To some extent that's happened in Manchester but from trains to trams and one dedicated bus route.

 

[E27007]

During the current strikes, and the no-strike no-train days, add Avanti, TPE etc, won't a lot of passengers who have switched to the coaches be so fed up with the railways that they won't go back?

Contrary to that though, coaches from Gatwick to London were fully booked up, leaving stranded passengers only a taxi as an alternative, so they would be gagging for the trains!

Anyway, if the railways were closed down, the track beds would still be there to run dedicated coach and bus lanes or trams, so we would move from railway to tyreway! To some extent that's happened in Manchester but from trains to trams and one dedicated bus route.

These posts about converting railways to tyreways, in about 1980 of the Thatcher era ,a Report with a plan that railways into Victoria and Waterloo be torn up and converted to dedicated express road coach usage , I cannot recall the name of the Report, can anyone help?

 

[Nottingham59]

a Report with a plan that railways into Victoria and Waterloo be torn up and converted to dedicated express road coach usage , I cannot recall the name of the Report

I know there was a proposal, I think by Ernest Marples the pro-road transport minister, to close Marylebone station and convert the line to an express busway. I think the clearences in the tunnels were too tight for coaches to pass each other safely, or something.

EDIT: Here you are:

Almost Terminal: Marylebone's Brush With Destruction - London Reconnections

The leading source for independent news and analysis about transport in London and beyond. Award-winning coverage of transport infrastructure and politics alongside stories about the history of the Capital's transport networks.

www.londonreconnections.com

"it seems hard to believe that the rail lines into Marylebone were once seriously considered for closure. Yet back in the mid-1980s under-utilization of the route led to proposals to convert the line into a dedicated bus route, with the site of Marylebone station being converted into a bus station,..."

EDIT2: Also: Twilight of the Railways. What Roads they'll Make!" (1957)

http://www.transport-watch.co.uk/sites/default/files/Twilight%20of%20the%20Railways%20-%20What%20roads%20they%20will%20make%20Brigadier%20Lloyd.pdf

EDIT3: http://www.transport-watch.co.uk/topic-7-archive-railway-conversion-league-1958-1994
Lists 20 reports from the Railway Conversion League: 1958-1994

 

[Annetts key]

The coal industry was closed, NCB was making a headline loss of £5 per ton of coal, there are no sacred cows anymore, a Serpell Railway could be considered

Rather a lot of differences:

• Imported coal competition,
• Diesel and Electric locomotives,
• Mains gas for heating homes and supplying industries,
• Gas turbine electricity power stations,
• Nuclear electricity power stations,
• Wind turbine electricity generation,
• Environmental reasons to decommission coal electricity power stations.

Combined, all of these have destroyed the market for coal. Which is a good thing for the environment in the long term.

 

[Clayton]

During the current strikes, and the no-strike no-train days, add Avanti, TPE etc, won't a lot of passengers who have switched to the coaches be so fed up with the railways that they won't go back?

Contrary to that though, coaches from Gatwick to London were fully booked up, leaving stranded passengers only a taxi as an alternative, so they would be gagging for the trains!

Anyway, if the railways were closed down, the track beds would still be there to run dedicated coach and bus lanes or trams, so we would move from railway to tyreway! To some extent that's happened in Manchester but from trains to trams and one dedicated bus route.

It’s winter and the weather has been bad. I imagine a lot of people just haven’t bothered travelling when the trains were on strike, which certainly applies to me.

On your second point, I can’t see any advantage in converting a smooth high capacity railway to a road carrying small, bumpy coaches.

 

[stuu]

You won't get bus lanes on Motoways again - the M4 one was a disaster both from a capacity use and PR perspective - it wasn't heavily used and became notorious for its use by govt ministers who dreamt up the idea not wishing to sit in the queues with the plebs, the queues their idiotic policy had created.

It wasn't heavily used but it didn't have any impact on capacity as the elevated section only has two lanes. All it did was extend the two lane section and move the lane reduction back to the previous junction.

 

[philosopher]

These posts about converting railways to tyreways, in about 1980 of the Thatcher era ,a Report with a plan that railways into Victoria and Waterloo be torn up and converted to dedicated express road coach usage , I cannot recall the name of the Report, can anyone help?

The problem with converting railways to coachways is that a two lane road takes up more space both vertically and horizontally than a dual track railway, which would make conversion costs very high.

 

[Starmill]

It wasn't heavily used but it didn't have any impact on capacity as the elevated section only has two lanes. All it did was extend the two lane section and move the lane reduction back to the previous junction.

Indeed. It would have made more sense to paint it out of use than to return it to a third lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with converting railways to coachways is that a two lane road takes up more space both vertically and horizontally than a dual track railway, which would make conversion costs very high.

Under tunnels and bridges it does. More generally it doesn't, because the railway land is typically wider than the formation itself. As an example, it was possible to fit two busway tracks and a cycle path in the space of a double track line (just) in Cambridgeshire.

 

[Nottingham59]

The problem with converting railways to coachways is that a two lane road takes up more space both vertically and horizontally than a dual track railway, which would make conversion costs very high.

I do remember thinking that the Marylebone coachway might have worked one-way. Inbound in the morning, with the coaches returning on the ordinary roads against the main flow of traffic. One coach every 20 seconds would carry 10,000 pax/h.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do remember thinking that the Marylebone coachway might have worked one-way. Inbound in the morning, with the coaches returning on the ordinary roads against the main flow of traffic. One coach every 20 seconds would carry 10,000 pax/h.

Was that the intention, or was it more that Aylesbury passengers would have changed for the Met at Amersham and the service from Banbury would have gone into Paddington, with Marylebone being a replacement for Victoria Coach Station with far less congestion on the way in, in a similar way to the way the old railway has been changed to a very useful road into Blackpool? It would have allowed much easier access from e.g. the M40. Overall it was probably not that terrible an idea if it was intended to work in this way.

 

[stuu]

I do remember thinking that the Marylebone coachway might have worked one-way. Inbound in the morning, with the coaches returning on the ordinary roads against the main flow of traffic. One coach every 20 seconds would carry 10,000 pax/h.

How much would 180 coach drivers cost vs 20-30 train crew?

 

[SynthD]

I do remember thinking that the Marylebone coachway might have worked one-way. Inbound in the morning, with the coaches returning on the ordinary roads against the main flow of traffic. One coach every 20 seconds would carry 10,000 pax/h.

How much coach parking space would that need?

 

[Annetts key]

When thinking about comparing road transport vs railways, one consideration is the mechanical efficiency of the wheel/running surface. A railway steel wheel running on a steel rail is more efficient compared to a rubber wheel running on an asphalt road.

Trains carriages/cars can be longer than road going coaches, and of course one train can be formed of many carriages/cars. Hence a well loaded train formed of multiple carriages/cars is far more efficient compared to road going coaches.

The elephant in the room, as far as the railways are concerned is the debt that they have to service. Now, I don’t know enough about our road network to say, but how are/were the building and maintenance of our road network funded? Are there any actual financial figures on how much has been spent on the road network?

 

[heathrowrail]

Yes - if autonomous vehicles became a reality then I could see the network closing down

You'd need a PRT system like Heathrow Pod but much more comfortable to come in for that to happen, it would cost billions (more than the cost of keeping the railways & motorways & bus services going) you'd also need a political party with a backbone to implement it as the strikes and chaos caused would be unprecedented. It's very unlikely to ever happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd need a PRT system like Heathrow Pod but much more comfortable to come in for that to happen, it would cost billions (more than the cost of keeping the railways & motorways & bus services going) you'd also need a political party with a backbone to implement it as the strikes and chaos caused would be unprecedented. It's very unlikely to ever happen.

There is very little point in Heathrow pods for public transport. They have basically no significant benefits over the car and lots of downsides. They could replace taxis and rural branch lines I suppose, but they're never going to be viable from Manchester to London. Even for Heathrow they were an expensive gimmick when every other airport car park manages with a shuttle bus.

 

[PTR 444]

You'd need a PRT system like Heathrow Pod but much more comfortable to come in for that to happen, it would cost billions (more than the cost of keeping the railways & motorways & bus services going) you'd also need a political party with a backbone to implement it as the strikes and chaos caused would be unprecedented. It's very unlikely to ever happen.

With fully autonomous vehicles, you wouldn’t need PRT-style infrastructure as they could just use normal roads. Even during the transition phase (where there is a mixture of autonomous and manual vehicles on the road network), it’s more likely that existing motorways and bypasses will be adapted to allow autonomous driving only.

 

[The Planner]

How much coach parking space would that need?

A huge amount. If you go off the 3 per minute suggested above, then you are at 180 per hour. Marylebone aint that big. Google comes up with 1200 coach movements per day at Victoria coach station, which is an average of 50 per hour.

 

[Nottingham59]

How much coach parking space would that need?

You don't need any. Morning coaches from Oxford go back out immediately on the A40/M40 against the traffic. Afternoon coaches come in on the A40/M40, again against the traffic and leave London on the bus way.

 

[Bald Rick]

or was it more that Aylesbury passengers would have changed for the Met at Amersham and the service from Banbury would have gone into Paddington, with Marylebone being a replacement for Victoria Coach Station with far less congestion on the way in, in a similar way to the way the old railway has been changed to a very useful road into Blackpool?

IIRC correctly that was almost the intention - not sure if Marylebone was intended as a replacement for Victoria , complementary, or was to be sold off and the coaches just left the ‘coach way’ at Marylebone and went straight on to Victoria via Marble Arch and Hyde Park Corner.

How much would 180 coach drivers cost vs 20-30 train crew?

Not that much different, not least because the average coach driver spends a higher percentage of their paid hours driving than the average train driver.

 

[The Planner]

You don't need any. Morning coaches from Oxford go back out immediately on the A40/M40 against the traffic. Afternoon coaches come in on the A40/M40, again against the traffic and leave London on the bus way.

Oxford Tube is 6 per hour in the peaks, 3 off peak. But that is just the one destination.

 

[heathrowrail]

There is very little point in Heathrow pods for public transport. They have basically no significant benefits over the car and lots of downsides. They could replace taxis and rural branch lines I suppose, but they're never going to be viable from Manchester to London. Even for Heathrow they were an expensive gimmick when every other airport car park manages with a shuttle bus.

Incorrect. The pods are designed to replace buses

go to 29 mins in. A bus of 50 seats every 5 minutes is only 600 seats in an hour, the Pods can provide double that at 1,200 seats an hour. They're actually starting to catch on in Dubai & the Middle East.

 

[Thirteen]

Aren't the Heathrow Pods more like the rapid shuttle service that exists at Terminal 5 and also Gatwick but on a smaller scale?

 

[zwk500]

You don't need any. Morning coaches from Oxford go back out immediately on the A40/M40 against the traffic. Afternoon coaches come in on the A40/M40, again against the traffic and leave London on the bus way.

Would people be expected to just jump off James bond style then?

 

[The Ham]

Incorrect. The pods are designed to replace buses

go to 29 mins in. A bus of 50 seats every 5 minutes is only 600 seats in an hour, the Pods can provide double that at 1,200 seats an hour. They're actually starting to catch on in Dubai & the Middle East.

Pods are useful in set circumstances, however a bus every 5 minutes is hardly any, this equates to 24PCU (1 PCU = 1 car) whilst a normal road can carry 1,200 PCU.

Meaning that even just as cars with only one person can carry 1,200 people, just the same as the pods.

However having a bus every 2 minutes (60PCU) would still beat that at 1,500 seats and the roads would feel almost empty.

 

[Ken H]

Would people be expected to just jump off James bond style then?

you have reminded me of a bit in Tom Sharpes book - 'Blott on the Landscape'. A civil servant called Dundridge (played by Simon Cadell in the TV series) was always late because of lateness on the underground. He suggested trains would not stop but that moving walkways be installed at each station. There would be 3 or 4 parallel to the track, each running slower as you got further from the train. passengers would jump from the train then onto slower and slower walkways so the train didnt have to stop.
Needless to say Dudridge filed his clothes in alphabetical order. He needed a catalogue to tell him where his socks were!