Closing doors while people are boarding

[TimG]

FCC seems to be under the impression that they are in the business of selling tickets and moving trains.. they are not. They are in the business of transporting people!

My train on Friday was half the usual length. This in itself isn't really excusable. (spare trains anyone?), but not the end of the world.

What isn't excusable is that the train closed the doors while people were still trying to board. There was plenty of space, just congestion as people needed to move down the carriages. Inevitably this means that it will take longer for the train to be boarded.

In no other industry would such blatant disregard for your customers be acceptable! Crazy

 

[Moonshot]

FCC seems to be under the impression that they are in the business of selling tickets and moving trains.. they are not. They are in the business of transporting people!

My train on Friday was half the usual length. This in itself isn't really excusable. (spare trains anyone?), but not the end of the world.

What isn't excusable is that the train closed the doors while people were still trying to board. There was plenty of space, just congestion as people needed to move down the carriages. Inevitably this means that it will take longer for the train to be boarded.

In no other industry would such blatant disregard for your customers be acceptable! Crazy

And yet the customers keep on coming in ever increasing numbers!! Crazy !!

 

[TimG]

And yet the customers keep on coming in ever increasing numbers!! Crazy !!

It is. Like turning to prostitution some people have no choice.

 

[TDK]

FCC seems to be under the impression that they are in the business of selling tickets and moving trains.. they are not. They are in the business of transporting people!

My train on Friday was half the usual length. This in itself isn't really excusable. (spare trains anyone?), but not the end of the world.

What isn't excusable is that the train closed the doors while people were still trying to board. There was plenty of space, just congestion as people needed to move down the carriages. Inevitably this means that it will take longer for the train to be boarded.

In no other industry would such blatant disregard for your customers be acceptable! Crazy

Were all available doors being used on the train?

 

[185]

My favourite announcements, heard somewhere down south....


"Please use all 16 available doors, not just the two at the rear." ... "Right too late."

*slam*

"Owww!"

-----------

"Can passengers please not board this train, it's full, you are delaying it, and there is a completely empty service trying to come in behind going the exact same way."

*slam*

Passenger: "Disgusting how full these trains are. Always late... etc"

-----------


:P

 

[Moonshot]

It is. Like turning to prostitution some people have no choice.

I wouldnt know about that Tim.....but even prostitutes have been known to close their doors !!!


no doubt someone is going to come along in a minute and ask you if the service was DOO or it had a guard!!!

 

[najaB]

My train on Friday was half the usual length. This in itself isn't really excusable. (spare trains anyone?)...

To which the answer is "No". There isn't really any such thing as a 'spare train' for most TOC's. If there were spare trains then your train wouldn't have been half length.

What isn't excusable is that the train closed the doors while people were still trying to board. There was plenty of space, just congestion as people needed to move down the carriages.

Did this train have a guard, or was it driver-only operated? If it was DOO then the driver has no way to know how much space there is in the carriages. All (s)he can see is that people are squeezing to get in and not getting anywhere which, from their perspective, means that the train is close to overcrowded and they would be in deep trouble if they let more people on.

In no other industry would such blatant disregard for your customers be acceptable! Crazy

Very few other industries have the time constraints that the railway has: by waiting a few minutes extra at each station that train could cause dozens of other trains to be late, resulting in delayed journeys and missed connections for thousands of other people.

 

[Moonshot]

I wouldnt know about that Tim.....but even prostitutes have been known to close their doors !!!


no doubt someone is going to come along in a minute and ask you if the service was DOO or it had a guard!!!

Oooooooo i wish I had put a bet on that !!!!!!!!!!!! Right on cue !!!

 

[Domh245]

AFAIK, all FCC trains are DOO.

We can't really start jumping to conclusions until there are some more facts. Which train was it, and where were you boarding it? For all we know, the Driver may have already been 5 minutes down, and this was the first stop, in which case they wouldn't want to hang around. It may also have been a case of faulty DOO equipment, or maybe even commuter syndrome (see 185's post)

 

[najaB]

Oooooooo i wish I had put a bet on that !!!!!!!!!!!! Right on cue !!!

Happy to oblige.

 

[TimG]

Clarification...

This was half four at London Bridge. So the train had staff on platform to dispatch. I have never got on a train at this station where it hasn't been "ready to leave" (whatever that means- it certainly doesn't seem to involve whether anyone has got on the train!) before people have finished boarding.

The train was much more overcrowded than usual, as it was half size.. There was actually lots of space, but it was difficult to board due to people not moving down. In this situation the train should (IMO) just wait for people to get on.

A this particular station it appears no one has any incentive to actually let people board trains. I imagine performance is measured by dwell time.

 

[Domh245]

Ok, I take it was this train then: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G71236/2014/07/25/advanced

It would appear that the train had arrived 2.5 late at London Bridge, and was usually scheduled to be stopped for 1 minute (in practice less!) - indeed the train was stopped for 2.25 minutes, which would have in practice given double the usual boarding time. I can imagine that the driver was rather keen to get away seeing as he was already late, and by the time he left he was late enough for it to start being problematic. It's interesting that you mention the platform staff, as normally they wouldn't have let a train go if there were still people trying to board, so it probably got to a point that the dispatcher thought "tough - they'll just have to get the next one".

Someone will be able to better explain why it is bad to be late from a TOC perspective, I just know its bad.

 

[najaB]

I imagine performance is measured by dwell time.

Largely, yes. Look at how busy London Bridge is around 1630 on a Friday and you should be able to appreciate that delaying a train can have massive knock-on effects.

 

[TimG]

Ok, I take it was this train then: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G71236/2014/07/25/advanced

It would appear that the train had arrived 2.5 late at London Bridge, and was usually scheduled to be stopped for 1 minute (in practice less!) - indeed the train was stopped for 2.25 minutes, which would have in practice given double the usual boarding time. I can imagine that the driver was rather keen to get away seeing as he was already late, and by the time he left he was late enough for it to start being problematic. It's interesting that you mention the platform staff, as normally they wouldn't have let a train go if there were still people trying to board, so it probably got to a point that the dispatcher thought "tough - they'll just have to get the next one".

Someone will be able to better explain why it is bad to be late from a TOC perspective, I just know its bad.

I imagine the practice is for the greater good. ... but for the customer it is very irritating.

No compensation offered? Why not? Why do you have to seek it out? why is their no "free bottle of wine"?

 

[EM2]

The train was much more overcrowded than usual, as it was half size.. There was actually lots of space, but it was difficult to board due to people not moving down. In this situation the train should (IMO) just wait for people to get on.

And just get later and later and later? I'm sure the passengers waiting at East Croydon and beyond would really appreciate that, plus all the passengers on the trains stacking behind and their passengers waiting further down the line.

 

[najaB]

No compensation offered? Why not? Why do you have to seek it out? why is their no "free bottle of wine"?

Not very useful to people who don't drink, and possibly criminally negligent if given to an alcoholic.

Okay, I get that you (probably) weren't being literal. You have to seek it out because the TOC isn't in a position to hand out compensation there and then, and they have no way to know who was or was not affected unless they make a claim.

 

[PHILIPE]

TOCs are more interested in departing trains to time rather than delay, for financial reasons rathrt than the interest of their passengers.

 

[muz379]

Did this train have a guard, or was it driver-only operated? If it was DOO then the driver has no way to know how much space there is in the carriages. All (s)he can see is that people are squeezing to get in and not getting anywhere which, from their perspective, means that the train is close to overcrowded and they would be in deep trouble if they let more people on.

If there is no way for them to know how busy the carriages was how can you then go on to say they would be in any trouble for letting people board when they cant tell how busy the carriage is ,
IMO the driver of a DOO train would not be in any trouble if the passengers themselves decide that they wish to dangerously cram themselves into the train . besides there is no legal limit to how many people can fit in a train carriage .

They would actually be in deep trouble if they closed the doors whilst passengers where still boarding because they thought the carriage was crowded and subsequently ended up dragging a passenger to their death

 

[SephenWorceste]

I saw this at Vauxhall. We had used one set of doors to board a nearly empty train to Wimbledon. The doors were shut with a push chair half on half off at another set of doors. The women was outside the train with the push chair jammed unable to go forward or back.

The doors were not reopened. I rushed down the carriage and pulled the doors open. Perhaps not the correct thing to do. The woman was visibly distressed. After what seemed like ages all other doors opened and the woman and push chair boarded, the doors shut and off we went.

The push chair and women had been the only persons boarding at those doors. They had taken a little bit of time to board but they probably could not have been quicker.

If it had been me stuck I would not have been happy. I suppose there was not danger of the train departing as a door lock had not been achieved but not very nice.

Best wishes, Stephen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cherry_Picker]

At some point you've got to go. You really have. I'm not sure about the location in the original post, FCC is a bit of a blind spot for me but where I work we have several stations which always seem to have a never ending stream of passengers running for the train.
I'll throw Bicester North out as an example. I'm not sure how many of you know it but it's a typically busy home counties station, it has a large commute in the peaks and an abnormally high number of people using the station during the rest of the day because of the nearby designer clothes outlet.
Most people using the station are travelling to or from London. Access to the platforms is only available from the down (northbound) side of the station so anybody going to London needs to cross an overbridge and decent a flight of stairs to reach the platform.
I'm going to pull numbers out of the air now but lets say when a train arrives in the station then 90-95% of people who want it are already on the platform. There will be some people running, you can see them coming so you wait for them. Once they board the train inevitably there is another person on the stairs running for the train. You wait for that one and guess what? There is another person on the stairs running for the train. And another. This could carry on for five or ten minutes if you allow it to so at some point you have to close the doors when it is safe to do so and keep to the timetable.

To those who turn up late and say "what about me?" then I guess the answer is catch the next train. At some point the people who are on board want to leave and get to their destination on time. I don't even think that attitude is anti passenger, it's pro passenger because the overwhelming majority of people involved in this situation want to get moving.

 

[ushawk]

I imagine the practice is for the greater good. ... but for the customer it is very irritating.

I assume you have thought about the customers of the next trains which are due, which cant come in as you are holding a train. Also the customers at the next stations which will be delayed waiting and then finding out they cant actually get on board and having to wait even longer. Also, if you train then leaves 12 down, especially on lines like the Brighton Mainline, it WILL lose its path and would have to be slotted in somewhere, delaying it further and also having a knock-on effect to trains on completely different routes, which delay these services which could end up delaying other services.

IE this FCC service could delay a Southern service to Southampton at East Croydon, which then could delay a SWT Waterloo service at Havant, which could delay another SWT Weymouth service at Woking, which could delay a FGW Bristol service at Weymouth. Yes its exaggerated, but the impact can easily spread on a congested network.

What happened happened to reduce the impact to other services and passengers.

 

[najaB]

If there is no way for them to know how busy the carriages was how can you then go on to say they would be in any trouble for letting people board when they cant tell how busy the carriage is...

They would likely be in trouble in the event of something happening due to (or being made worse by) the carriages being over-full. For example, if a child got crushed or if there was a fire and it wasn't possible to evacuate the train in time.

...besides there is no legal limit to how many people can fit in a train carriage...

I'm not so sure that's correct, but even if there isn't a legal limit, there is a design loading. Exceeding that loading wouldn't be advisable.

They would actually be in deep trouble if they closed the doors whilst passengers where still boarding because they thought the carriage was crowded and subsequently ended up dragging a passenger to their death

And that is more likely to happen the longer they stay at the platform, letting more and more people board. If passengers know that the train won't wait for a long time, they are less likely to try to squeeze on.

 

[Bald Rick]

It must be irritating for passengers who miss a train in these circumstances. However, as has been said, delaying 1 train for 1 or 2 minutes at London Bridge at the start of the evening peak can easily cause a knock on delay to over 100 other trains, each with up to 1000 people on board. Almost every day there is an item in the internal control reports about a peak train being delayed somewhere by a couple of minutes knocking on to scores of other trains.

What could be done better is the dispatchers being more forceful, bellowing on the PA that 'the doors will close in 20 seconds, please use other doors if you want to board this one'.

 

[40129]

And of course, there would have been no warning tone to advise passengers to stand clear as the doors were about to close. Oh I forgot, that actually means "please rush towards the closing doors and blame the train crew and/or dispatcher if/when you get trapped"

 

[Domh245]

Aren't the design loadings based mainly on a combination of how many seats there are, and what floor space there is, regardless of what's above and how small a gap between things there are, assuming that for every metre of floor space, you can fit 4 people - which unless you are ramming people into the smallest nooks and crannies, forcefully removing luggage, and generally packing them in, won't really be observed.

If there was an event where severe overloading was contributory in some way, then the TOC might get a lot of stick from the press, public, and parliament, but if they had put a 12 coach train on what was known to be a busy train and it was packed anyway, what could have been done to prevent it - employ people to click people on and off at each station? Put an extra train on made up of this famous stock that is hidden away in cupboards on a non-existent path immediately behind the incident train?

 

[hassaanhc]

Ever wondered what the hell causes the 5-10 minute delays due to congestion? It is mainly because of small seconds-long delays having added up.
If a train took just 15 seconds more than planned at a few consecutive stations, you'd easily be 2 down in no time, that means 2 minutes extra worth of passengers are waiting at the following stations, leading to more delays as they take longer to board. Then it also causes issues at junctions if the train from the branch is late and misses its slot on the mainline. And the train behind, rather than there being a neat gap in front of it, it has caught up with the train in front and leading to the random slow crawling between stations you experience.

Probably too much for TOCs to explain things like this in plain English rather than generic terms?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If there was an event where severe overloading was contributory in some way, then the TOC might get a lot of stick from the press, public, and parliament, but if they had put a 12 coach train on what was known to be a busy train and it was packed anyway, what could have been done to prevent it - employ people to click people on and off at each station? Put an extra train on made up of this famous stock that is hidden away in cupboards on a non-existent path immediately behind the incident train?

What about compulsory reservations and no standing allowed, as is a common suggestion, with passengers waiting 10 years for a chance to get a space on a train?

And if operators did keep spare stock, then you'd have people moaning why it isn't being used

 

[TimG]

Obviously everyone has made good points.. you have to disadvantage someone in such situations..

Let me put it this way. I'd much rather be late by 5 to 10 minutes most of the time, but always be able to get on my intended train, than have a 10% chance of not being able to get on the train and always being on time. The main frustration with public transport is not journey times, but predictability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about compulsory reservations and no standing allowed, as is a common suggestion, with passengers waiting 10 years for a chance to get a space on a train?

And if operators did keep spare stock, then you'd have people moaning why it isn't being used

They should go the opposite route and remove most of the seats and the silly divider things you get near doors that encourage people to loiter rather than make use of the aisle space.

Do they really keep NO spare stock? What the rationale for that? Surely the track is the expensive bit and the trains the cheap bit?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And of course, there would have been no warning tone to advise passengers to stand clear as the doors were about to close. Oh I forgot, that actually means "please rush towards the closing doors and blame the train crew and/or dispatcher if/when you get trapped"

But why are the closing them when people are boarding? If you were walking in to the shop and every two minutes they just decided to slam the door in your face you'd be pretty peeved!

If there isn't enough time.. then change the timetable not close the doors!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It must be irritating for passengers who miss a train in these circumstances. However, as has been said, delaying 1 train for 1 or 2 minutes at London Bridge at the start of the evening peak can easily cause a knock on delay to over 100 other trains, each with up to 1000 people on board. Almost every day there is an item in the internal control reports about a peak train being delayed somewhere by a couple of minutes knocking on to scores of other trains.

What could be done better is the dispatchers being more forceful, bellowing on the PA that 'the doors will close in 20 seconds, please use other doors if you want to board this one'.

I seriously think at London bridge they need japanese style whit gloves pushers to force people down the aisles

 

[causton]

Do they really keep NO spare stock? What the rationale for that? Surely the track is the expensive bit and the trains the cheap bit?

Any "spare" stock is undergoing examinations and repairs, there might be one or two free per TOC. As many as possible are in use because passengers prefer longer trains which would be in use most of the time, rather than cramming on a train every evening because there are a spare 4 cars used twice a year!

 

[najaB]

Do they really keep NO spare stock? What the rationale for that? Surely the track is the expensive bit and the trains the cheap bit?

Trains, for the most part, are leased. That means that every tick of the clock costs you money, but you only make money when they're in use. Hence you want your utilisation to be as high as possible.

 

[causton]

But why are the closing them when people are boarding? If you were walking in to the shop and every two minutes they just decided to slam the door in your face you'd be pretty peeved!

Have you ever worked in a shop?

I do, and we have to shut the door in people's faces. When it is half past 6 and we closed at six, sorry, no, we have to go home. Yes people are peeved, but...

...if you want to go into a shop, or get on a train, turn up on time!

That's what it all boils down to, and other people* who are sensible and turn up on time should not have to pay for it.

*On a train, the passengers who turned up on time are getting later and later. In a shop, if we spend more money on wages keeping all the staff an hour later for one customer, the money has to be saved from other times! So the majority would lose out...