Cleaning in BR Days

[L+Y]

Prompted by a discussion on Twitter. You often see comments gently criticising preserved railways for the cleanliness of their steam locomotives, in contrast to the authentic days of BR grime. Indeed, in the colour photos of the end of steam, grime and rust is clearly the rule.

However, is this something of an artefact of the fact that widespread colour photography coincided with the final decline of BR steam, closure of locosheds, staff downsizing etc. Would the steam fleet in, say, the early 50s (to say nothing of the pre-WW2 era) have looked considerably closer to modern preservation than to 1960s steam?

 

[eldomtom2]

Based on the colour photos and film I've seen pre-1960s (there's a lot out there if you look for it), quite a bit dirtier than preserved locos, but definitely a lot cleaner than the state of the survivors in 1967/68. Grime much more obvious than rust. Numbers, totems, lining etc. usually clearly visible. Loco sides usually a fair bit cleaner than the top and anything below the running plate. Passenger locos usually in better nick than freight ones.

 

[Carbean]

Did the railway still recruit engine cleaners from say 1965 onwards. I know it was first step on career ladder to driver but as railway was making firemen redundant did they want (or need) to recruit cleaners?

 

[Rescars]

Cleanliness in the 1950s, especially of express locos, might depend in part on the depots involved. IIRC Worcester was known for turning out smart Castles.

 

[LowLevel]

Did the railway still recruit engine cleaners from say 1965 onwards. I know it was first step on career ladder to driver but as railway was making firemen redundant did they want (or need) to recruit cleaners?

Yes, a colleague started in 1965 as an engine cleaner.

I always find the grime comments funny. These locos are more akin to a sports car, someone's pride and joy. It's nice to see them looking well loved.

 

[Harvester]

Cleanliness in the 1950s, especially of express locos, might depend in part on the depots involved. IIRC Worcester was known for turning out smart Castles.

Kings Cross (34A) was also well known for turning out gleaming Pacifics especially its A4s. Back in the days when I was a lad, a clean approaching A4 in the NER nearly always turned out to be a Top Shed engine. Gateshead had a bad reputation, maybe a shortage of cleaners, but it‘s A4s were in contrast somewhat grimy.

 

[Rescars]

A couple of anecdotes from the nineteenth century to put twentieth century loco cleaning into perspective. Hamilton Ellis recounts that LBSC's William Stroudley, if he found any grease on parts of any of his locos that were meant to be clean polished, would give such a withering glance that it would mortify whoever was responsible. The test involved Stroudley wiping his gloved finger along the parts in question. Similarly, according to D L Smith, when the GSWR was to work a royal train, Hugh Smellie put two staff onto cleaning the loco as a full-time activity for a whole week, before inspecting their efforts personally. Things aren't what they used to be!

 

[70014IronDuke]

I am sure it depended on individual depots and are managers, but my feeling is things started to go downhill from c 1963 or so.
I remember seeing my first Coronation pacific at Nuneaton in, probably, the Whitsun half term holiday of 1961. It was 46245 City of London on a Euston - Glasgow express and it had been checked at the southern gantry about 300 metres ? from the station (probably by our late running down Class 1 which had stopped at Nuneaton). This gleaming maroon monster rolled a yard or two from us (we were on the cinder track to the shed, I was only nine). Perhaps I'm looking through maroon-tinted glasses, but my memory was that it was polished fit for the Royal Train loco, the sunlight glinting off the top of the boiler. Stunnng. One of my most abiding early trainspotting experiences.

Further to @Rescars above, I have a memory of a Castle arriving at Oxford, I think it was a very clean Sir Edward Elgar (appropriately) on the up Cathedrals Express - did that get into Oxford about 09.30 - 10.00? It was possibly at half-term in the autumn of '63. (I should ask my ol' trainspotting pal, because I think he still has his log books).

 

[D Williams]

A couple of anecdotes from the nineteenth century to put twentieth century loco cleaning into perspective. Hamilton Ellis recounts that LBSC's William Stroudley, if he found any grease on parts of any of his locos that were meant to be clean polished, would give such a withering glance that it would mortify whoever was responsible. The test involved Stroudley wiping his gloved finger along the parts in question. Similarly, according to D L Smith, when the GSWR was to work a royal train, Hugh Smellie put two staff onto cleaning the loco as a full-time activity for a whole week, before inspecting their efforts personally. Things aren't what they used to be!

In more recent times a now-departed friend related that when he was a cleaner at Bath he, and several others, were given the job of cleaning a Fowler 4F for "royal train duties". The cleaning went on for several days with inspections from the foreman. Finally the great day arrived as did the royal train that was parked in an obscure siding for an overnight stay. After dark the 4F coupled to the train to provide steam heat and returned to the shed before daylight.

 

[Ken H]

How do you go about cleaning a steam loco with the products available 60 years ago? Same as carriages. Did they have oxalic acid back then?
And did they try whirly washes like they use for modern trains today?

 

[Taunton]

Similarly, according to D L Smith, when the GSWR was to work a royal train, Hugh Smellie put two staff onto cleaning the loco as a full-time activity for a whole week, before inspecting their efforts personally. Things aren't what they used to be!

The Western Region did better around 1960, the Royal Train was going on the Taunton to Barnstaple line, for which a 43xx 2-6-0 was the largest allowed over the spindly viaducts. Two of Taunton's stalwarts, 6327 and 6372, were actually sent to Newton Abbot works and repainted green for the trip.

This was shortly before the Southern lines in the west were taken over. So go via Exeter and have the Southern play a part? Never!!

 

[Harvester]

Just been looking at some magazine colour photos of 4079 Pendennis Castle at Paddington on 9th May 1964, prior to it working Z48. The loco had been specially prepared at Old Oak Common and looked immaculate with it’s gleaming brass and paintwork. The tender was full of hand picked ‘special’ coal for the non stop run to Plymouth, but this part of the preparation had serious consequences later on!

 

[The Crab]

I am sure it depended on individual depots and are managers, but my feeling is things started to go downhill from c 1963 or so.
I remember seeing my first Coronation pacific at Nuneaton in, probably, the Whitsun half term holiday of 1961. It was 46245 City of London on a Euston - Glasgow express and it had been checked at the southern gantry about 300 metres ? from the station (probably by our late running down Class 1 which had stopped at Nuneaton). This gleaming maroon monster rolled a yard or two from us (we were on the cinder track to the shed, I was only nine). Perhaps I'm looking through maroon-tinted glasses, but my memory was that it was polished fit for the Royal Train loco, the sunlight glinting off the top of the boiler. Stunnng. One of my most abiding early trainspotting experiences.

Further to @Rescars above, I have a memory of a Castle arriving at Oxford, I think it was a very clean Sir Edward Elgar (appropriately) on the up Cathedrals Express - did that get into Oxford about 09.30 - 10.00? It was possibly at half-term in the autumn of '63. (I should ask my ol' trainspotting pal, because I think he still has his log books).

If it was 1961 it would have been 300 yards.

 

[WolvertonWorks]

My great-great-grandfather, according to the report of the inquest into his death in 1889 worked as a "railway carriage cleaner" on New Street station in Birmingham.

He and a colleague were tasked with cleaning the carriages over on platform X but rather than use the offficial route between platforms they walked across the running lines with their mops and buckets.

Being "a little hard of hearing" he wasn't aware of an approaching engine, although his colleague was and jumped clear, and Ben was crushed between the platform edge and the engine. Pulled onto the platform, given brandy and taken to hospital he died of crush injuries the following day.

I always think of him when passing though New Street and often wonder about what they had to do the cleaning - just soap and water I assume.

The moral of course is like many workers before and since, he took the short cut and paid with his life.

 

[D Williams]

How do you go about cleaning a steam loco with the products available 60 years ago? Same as carriages. Did they have oxalic acid back then?
And did they try whirly washes like they use for modern trains today?

Steam locos were and are, cleaned by hand. It was a filthy job. Firstly hand scrapers were used to remove build up of scum and thick oil from frames , brake rigging, wheels, motion etc. then cleaning oil ( a paraffin-like substance) was applied to all surfaces and allowed to soak in. Cotton waste was used to wipe all surfaces until clean then the tender sides, tanks, cab, boiler would be given a final wipe of cleaning oil often leaving a pattern ( the "gimp") that shows up in old black and white photos. The cleaners then used the least dirty cotton waste to clean the frames and motion. Finally the smokebox received a coating of oil by wiping it with the dirty waste from the motion cleaning. Bright parts were polished with a mixture of brick dust and oil. After this the cleaners washed their hands in a bucket of sawdust and paraffin and lit up a woodbine! it is not hard to see how cleaning deteriorated quickly when it became impossible to recruit low-paid staff to a job that was the first step on the ladder to driving. As a matter of interest one of my friends who became a fireman never did any cleaning at all. He was recruited during the war but instead of cleaning was put on "knocking up" duties , calling out crews at all hours. Due to the staff shortages he then went straight on the footplate and never had to drop back to cleaning! The guidance given to steam loco cleaners in later years became " clean the numberplates and where the enginemen have to get for oiling up".

I should add that some of the bigger sheds used steam lances and detergent in special wash bays but these were far and few between. Some locos were the shed"pet" , usually because they had low mileage , spent a lot of time in the shed and became the fallback job for the cleaners. Locos at the more rural sheds could also be quite clean due to the small allocation, the greater attraction of railway work when the alternative was the farm, mine or the army. For example Wadebridge shed only had an allocation of five engines two of which were spare or being washed out so the cleaners concentrated on these. The foreman wasn't going to waste his staff's time on cleaning the grimy visitors that arrived from Exmouth Junction. Similarly Aberystwyth's were always well turned out.

 

[Taunton]

Just been looking at some magazine colour photos of 4079 Pendennis Castle at Paddington on 9th May 1964, prior to it working Z48. The loco had been specially prepared at Old Oak Common and looked immaculate with it’s gleaming brass and paintwork. The tender was full of hand picked ‘special’ coal for the non stop run to Plymouth, but this part of the preparation had serious consequences later on!

It was actually the standard WR Royal Train documented specification that they were adhering to, including various other cleaning and preparation aspects such as tender tank washed out, etc. Old Oak had plenty of experience in doing all this.

There was a bit of involvement at Taunton with this train later on ...

 

[Carbean]

Prior to entering BR works did steam engines have to cleaned or “tI died up”. Imagine the state of some freight locos (ie WD 2-8-0s) they would have had many years of grime which would have to be removed before stripping down the engine.

 

[Taunton]

Prior to entering BR works did steam engines have to cleaned or “tI died up”. Imagine the state of some freight locos (ie WD 2-8-0s) they would have had many years of grime which would have to be removed before stripping down the engine.

It was the first stage of the process actually at the works. There was a specific area for this. They knew what they were in for!

 

[Harvester]

It was actually the standard WR Royal Train documented specification that they were adhering to, including various other cleaning and preparation aspects such as tender tank washed out, etc. Old Oak had plenty of experience in doing all this.

There was a bit of involvement at Taunton with this train later on ...

Possibly one of the cleanest (externally) locos withdrawn by BR, which took place just a few days after the mishap!

The replacement Hall made steady progress and I’ve read that many on board wanted 6999 to stay on until Plymouth. However it had been commandeered at Westbury with only half a tender of coal, so had to come off at Taunton. The attempts at a ”ton” were planned for the Plymouth-Bristol and Bristol-Paddington legs, and the two best Castles (from earlier test runs) 7029 and 5054 were assigned to those sections.

 

[Taunton]

However, most unlikely to have stayed on. There was an established game plan with a standby Castle 7025 at Taunton, which the chief inspector on board would work to, had likely been involved in devising the plan, and was thinking "what a good thing we did". In those days there was no way of communicating from the train to the loco when running. The substitute Castle was out and standing on the Down Main just ahead of the platform and the crossover, as per plan, so when the Hall ran in shed crew 1 ran it over the crossover, shed crew 2 pushed back with 7025, main line crew stepped back on, and they were off ...

In case you think this was nothing to do with discussing cleaning, the shed reckoned they had done just as good a polishing job on 7025 as Old Oak.

 

[Spartacus]

Pre-decline in cleaning locos were cleaned to a much better standard, regardless of the photography, but it's worth taking into account that (aside from a clean loco on shed having plenty of opportunity to pick up dust before it left it, either from thrown out ash or from coaling, or simply so many other locos being prepped) most photos wouldn't be taken when the loco was fresh off the shed or having done little work. They'd be after it had done at least a decent graft that day, and it would have been WORKING, not just pottering around at 20mph not really exerting itself. I dare say such a loco would be grafting as much in the first hour than one on a preserved line might do in a day. A better comparison would be a loco that had been working a day's charter, though it would still miss out tmuch of that on shed muck, as well as from simply being around so many other steam locos during the day.

 

[Rescars]

At this distance in time, it is easy to forget how much dirt there was caused by burning large volumes of coal, not just on steam sheds, but more generally as well and just how quickly things got dirty as a result. The Clean Air Acts made a difference and stopped the "pea soup" smogs in urban areas, such as that which contributed to the Lewisham accident in 1957. When BTH's Royal Victoria Hotel next door to Sheffield Victoria had its brickwork cleaned (probably in the 1970s), one panel was left untouched to show how much grime had been removed. It's a long time since I have been there, so I don't know how time has treated this feature.

 

[Harvester]

In case you think this was nothing to do with discussing cleaning, the shed reckoned they had done just as good a polishing job on 7025 as Old Oak.

Another smart Worcester (85A) Castle 7022 was standby at Swindon. There have been photos in various publications of it outside the running shed alongside, and in contrast with crimson Duchess 46251, both facing east. The latter had worked an excursion from the East Midlands. The Plymouth standby 7008 was also well turned out.

Locos assigned to Z48

4079 (82B) Paddington-Westbury (failed Westbury)
6999 (83C) Westbury-Taunton (commandeered Westbury)
7025 (85A) Taunton-Plymouth
7029 (81A) Plymouth-Bristol
5054 (85A) Bristol-Paddington
7023 (85A) Standby at Old Oak Common
7008 (81A) Standby at Laira (and ecs from North Road for servicing)
7032 (81A) Standby at Bristol
7022 (85A) Standby at Swindon

 

[Magdalia]

At this distance in time, it is easy to forget how much dirt there was caused by burning large volumes of coal, not just on steam sheds, but more generally as well and just how quickly things got dirty as a result. The Clean Air Acts made a difference and stopped the "pea soup" smogs in urban areas, such as that which contributed to the Lewisham accident in 1957.

The weather that we have had in November so far would have resulted in smog if there was lots of coal burning now.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The weather that we have had in November so far would have resulted in smog if there was lots of coal burning now.

Coincidentally, my wife and I were talking about that very topic yesterday. The thick low cloud and windless damp air has been present on the Hampshire coast for the past three weeks.
We mulled how bad tne choking suphurous smog would be, if the area's households, industries, trains, plus Portsmouth's and Southampton's maritime activities, were all burning coal; and the population's density here being larger than it was in the 1950s.

 

[Spartacus]

The weather that we have had in November so far would have resulted in smog if there was lots of coal burning now.

I've certainly noticed places that produce various smells have been a lot stinkier lately.

 

[Helvellyn]

At this distance in time, it is easy to forget how much dirt there was caused by burning large volumes of coal, not just on steam sheds, but more generally as well and just how quickly things got dirty as a result. The Clean Air Acts made a difference and stopped the "pea soup" smogs in urban areas, such as that which contributed to the Lewisham accident in 1957. When BTH's Royal Victoria Hotel next door to Sheffield Victoria had its brickwork cleaned (probably in the 1970s), one panel was left untouched to show how much grime had been removed. It's a long time since I have been there, so I don't know how time has treated this feature.

Going off topic but the Royal Victoria Hotel anecdote reminds me of the story about the refurbishment (essentially rebuild) of Downing Street in the 1960s. The original bricks were found to be yellow but had been grime encrusted for years everyone was used to them being black. So once work was done the brickwork was painted black! (The famous front door was also dark green until the early twentieth century).