CLC Mileage Datums

[zx7ninja1]

I am trying to find out the datum point of the CLC line south of Manchester between Glazebrook East Jcn (approx 25 miles) and Godley Jcn (approx 42 miles), somewhere i have found says its mileage starts at the former Liverpool Central Station, yet the CLC mileposts said for example "M 34 MILES" on the trackside which suggests Manchester Central?? Can anyone shed any light on this for me?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am trying to find out the datum point of the CLC line south of Manchester between Glazebrook East Jcn (approx 25 miles) and Godley Jcn (approx 42 miles), somewhere i have found says its mileage starts at the former Liverpool Central Station, yet the CLC mileposts said for example "M 34 MILES" on the trackside which suggests Manchester Central?? Can anyone shed any light on this for me?

Yes, zero is the former Liverpool Central HL.
The mileage run went to Manchester Central, and Godley via Stockport Tiviot Dale.
It also went north from Tiviot Dale via Reddish North to Ashburys which is at 46m24c from Liverpool Central.
According to Quail there should still be 43/44/45/46 mileposts on the line through Reddish North.
Oddly this stretch was not pure CLC but GC and Midland Joint.

Mileages on the CLC route to Chester have a zero at Manchester Central, but only start at the end of the MSJ&A at Altrincham (8.00 from Oxford Road, 7.69 from Central).

 

[zx7ninja1]

Thanks for the info but it still seems rather odd to me with the datum being Liverpool but mileposts being from Manchester on the former trackside?? The mileage starts at 0MP at Liverpool, Glazebrook Jcn is about 24MP, then it increases on both lines to Manchester and on the Godley line. Just does not make sense.

 

[Rail Ranger]

"M" means "Measuring Point" or something similar, not Manchester. Liverpool Central was the measuring point (rather like Ongar for the Underground) because it was where the headquarters of the CLC was.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes, zero is the former Liverpool Central HL.
The mileage run went to Manchester Central, and Godley via Stockport Tiviot Dale.
It also went north from Tiviot Dale via Reddish North to Ashburys which is at 46m24c from Liverpool Central.
According to Quail there should still be 43/44/45/46 mileposts on the line through Reddish North.
Oddly this stretch was not pure CLC but GC and Midland Joint.

Mileages on the CLC route to Chester have a zero at Manchester Central, but only start at the end of the MSJ&A at Altrincham (8.00 from Oxford Road, 7.69 from Central).

For an observant present day milepost watcher trundling along the Mid-Cheshire line from Stockport Edgeley to Mickle Trafford in a Northern Rail Pacer, all the changes in datum must seem rather illogical unless you know the above history:

1. Mileage from Edgeley Junction, along the ex-LNWR branch between there and Northenden Junction
2. Mileage from Liverpool Central, along the ex-CLC line between Northenden Junction and Skelton Junction
3. Chainage around the chord between Skelton Junction and Deansgate Junction
4. Mileage from Oxford Road, along the ex-MSJAR between Deansgate Junction and Altrincham
5. Mileage from Manchester Central, along the ex-CLC line between Altrincham and Mickle Trafford

I must admit I have never noticed the difference between 4 and 5!

 

[zx7ninja1]

"M" means "Measuring Point" or something similar, not Manchester. Liverpool Central was the measuring point (rather like Ongar for the Underground) because it was where the headquarters of the CLC was.

Thanks for the info mate, i just presumed "M" was for Manchester, like other railway companies used initials of stations for their datums!! i.e. "L" for London on GNR mileposts.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For an observant present day milepost watcher trundling along the Mid-Cheshire line from Stockport Edgeley to Mickle Trafford in a Northern Rail Pacer, all the changes in datum must seem rather illogical unless you know the above history:
[*]Mileage from Oxford Road, along the ex-MSJAR between Deansgate Junction and Altrincham
[*]Mileage from Manchester Central, along the ex-CLC line between Altrincham and Mickle Trafford
[/LIST]
I must admit I have never noticed the difference between 4 and 5!

There must have been scope for two MP 8 milestones at Altrincham, one in the station (MSJ&A) and the other round the bend towards Hale (CLC, hopefully still there).
The MSJ&A one would probably have gone when Metrolink took over and measured everything in kilometres from an Altrincham zero.

 

[edwin_m]

According to the Quail map the section between Deansgate Jn and Altrincham (on the Network Rail track) is still measured from Oxford Road, so the mileposts should still be there although I've never thought to look for them. MP8 from Oxford Road looks to be just on the Hale side of Altrincham and is a change of mileage being equal to 7mi68ch from Central, so there should indeed be another MP8 about 250 metres towards Hale.

The Quail map usually gives zero point and sometimes also via points for mileage on each route.

 

[zx7ninja1]

Speaking of the mileposts south of the Altrincham area on the CLC line, the MSJ&AR line only ran for 8 ½ miles south of Manchester London Road station to Altrincham, yet the CLC mileposts on the line south of the end of the MSJ&AR section that i have seen in the past, seem to be the same style as the MSJ&AR ones, i.e. a round short post with a what could be described as a “D” shape on its flat side on top of the post. For example one said “LR 11 ½ miles” on the face of one side of the “D”, this is the same style as the MSJ&AR MP’s but on the CLC part of the line well south of Altrincham, so how can this be?

 

[Greybeard33]

According to the Quail map the section between Deansgate Jn and Altrincham (on the Network Rail track) is still measured from Oxford Road, so the mileposts should still be there although I've never thought to look for them. MP8 from Oxford Road looks to be just on the Hale side of Altrincham and is a change of mileage being equal to 7mi68ch from Central, so there should indeed be another MP8 about 250 metres towards Hale.

From observation today, I do not think there are any mileposts between Altrincham and Hale, just paint marks under the bridges and under Altrincham Platform 4. North of Altrincham there are 7_1/2 and 7_1/4 markers either side of Navigation Road station. These are of the BR metal "V" type, with dots below the number to denote the quarter miles. They are on the west side of the formation, adjacent to the Metrolink lines.

Speaking of the mileposts south of the Altrincham area on the CLC line, the MSJ&AR line only ran for 8 ½ miles south of Manchester London Road station to Altrincham, yet the CLC mileposts on the line south of the end of the MSJ&AR section that i have seen in the past, seem to be the same style as the MSJ&AR ones, i.e. a round short post with a what could be described as a “D” shape on its flat side on top of the post. For example one said “LR 11 ½ miles” on the face of one side of the “D”, this is the same style as the MSJ&AR MP’s but on the CLC part of the line well south of Altrincham, so how can this be?

Googling turned up this discussion, where Brian Begg-Robertson suggested that the posts you describe might be the original Cheshire Midland Railway ones from when the line was first built, before the CLC took it over.
Edit: the "LR" might stand for London Road, tending to confirm that they pre-date the construction of Central Station. However, this implies that their datum is Piccadilly, not Central!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From observation today, I do not think there are any mileposts between Altrincham and Hale, just paint marks under the bridges and under Altrincham Platform 4. North of Altrincham there are 7_1/2 and 7_1/4 markers either side of Navigation Road station. These are of the BR metal "V" type, with dots below the number to denote the quarter miles. They are on the west side of the formation, adjacent to the Metrolink lines.
Googling turned up this discussion, where Brian Begg-Robertson suggested that the posts you describe might be the original Cheshire Midland Railway ones from when the line was first built, before the CLC took it over.
Edit: the "LR" might stand for London Road, tending to confirm that they pre-date the construction of Central Station. However, this implies that their datum is Piccadilly, not Central!

Manchester Central was opened (1880) after the lines to Liverpool (1874) and Chester (1875) were completed, and services ran from London/Oxford Road initially.

The Sectional Appendix shows the same mileage discontinuity at the south end of Altrincham station (8.00/7.69), but doesn't indicate the origin.
Mystifying!

The Cheshire Midland is the name of the pub adjacent to Hale station.

 

[Greybeard33]

Manchester Central was opened (1880) after the lines to Liverpool (1874) and Chester (1875) were completed, and services ran from London/Oxford Road initially.

The Sectional Appendix shows the same mileage discontinuity at the south end of Altrincham station (8.00/7.69), but doesn't indicate the origin.
Mystifying!

The Cheshire Midland is the name of the pub adjacent to Hale station.

I suppose it is possible that the CLC kept the original mileposts but transplanted them a bit further south to be the correct distances from the Manchester Central datum. But then the "LR" would be misleading!

 

[edwin_m]

Speaking of the mileposts south of the Altrincham area on the CLC line, the MSJ&AR line only ran for 8 ½ miles south of Manchester London Road station to Altrincham, yet the CLC mileposts on the line south of the end of the MSJ&AR section that i have seen in the past, seem to be the same style as the MSJ&AR ones, i.e. a round short post with a what could be described as a “D” shape on its flat side on top of the post. For example one said “LR 11 ½ miles” on the face of one side of the “D”, this is the same style as the MSJ&AR MP’s but on the CLC part of the line well south of Altrincham, so how can this be?

THe MSJ&AR was joint LNWR and GC. The CLC was joint Midland, GC and GN. On joint lines it was common for the owning companies to split the work between them. So if the GC was responsible for mileposts in both cases perhaps the same design was used? How do they compare to mileposts on the "real" GC routes?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

THe MSJ&AR was joint LNWR and GC. The CLC was joint Midland, GC and GN. On joint lines it was common for the owning companies to split the work between them. So if the GC was responsible for mileposts in both cases perhaps the same design was used? How do they compare to mileposts on the "real" GC routes?

The MS&L (later GC) was certainly the "activist" company in the area and in the CLC.
It was also a backer of the Cheshire Midland before the CLC was formed.
I must pay attention to the lineside furniture next time I am on the Altrincham route!

 

[Greybeard33]

Speaking of the mileposts south of the Altrincham area on the CLC line, the MSJ&AR line only ran for 8 ½ miles south of Manchester London Road station to Altrincham, yet the CLC mileposts on the line south of the end of the MSJ&AR section that i have seen in the past, seem to be the same style as the MSJ&AR ones, i.e. a round short post with a what could be described as a “D” shape on its flat side on top of the post. For example one said “LR 11 ½ miles” on the face of one side of the “D”, this is the same style as the MSJ&AR MP’s but on the CLC part of the line well south of Altrincham, so how can this be?

From observation today, I do not think there are any mileposts between Altrincham and Hale, just paint marks under the bridges and under Altrincham Platform 4. North of Altrincham there are 7_1/2 and 7_1/4 markers either side of Navigation Road station. These are of the BR metal "V" type, with dots below the number to denote the quarter miles. They are on the west side of the formation, adjacent to the Metrolink lines.

THe MSJ&AR was joint LNWR and GC. The CLC was joint Midland, GC and GN. On joint lines it was common for the owning companies to split the work between them. So if the GC was responsible for mileposts in both cases perhaps the same design was used? How do they compare to mileposts on the "real" GC routes?

From further observation my previous post quoted above was inaccurate. There is a marker of the type zx7ninja1 describes (Cheshire Midland original?) about 11ch north of Hale station, inscribed "M 8 1/4", which must be from the Manchester Central datum.

There are more old markers (MSJ&AR originals?) north of Altrincham, on the opposite side of the tracks to the BR ones at 7_1/2 & 7_1/4 miles from the Oxford Road datum. These are quite different, being lollipop-shaped with a longer post. The legend on the disc is OR (for Oxford Road?) with just 1/2 or 1/4 beneath it. There is a further one of the same type lurking beneath the overbridge just south of Altrincham - "OR 8". Painted legends on the brickwork under the arch give the distance from both datums, confirming this is the change of mileage point.

The CLC markers between Skelton Junction and Northenden Junction are completely different again, being more like a mini-milestone with a semicircular top and no post.

On-line images of Great Central mileposts show that they were different to all of these.

It would seem every railway company had its own design!