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Classes 81-85 - what are the differences?

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MK Tom

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I know some (especially the 84s) are electrically different, but I'd love to understand why there are five different 'roarer' classes. I'm also interested in what physical differences there are between them - 83s and 84s I can tell apart from the rest by sight but 81s and 85s look absolutely identical to me. Any help greatly appreciated.
 
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D841 Roebuck

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Five classes for the five different builders.
81=British Thomson Houston
82=Metrovick
83=English Electric
84=North British
85=BR Doncaster Works.
 

RPM

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I think it is useful to look at it from another view point. A number of different manufacterers were invited to produce locomotives to a certain specification or set of specifications, with the detail of how this was to be acheived being left to a large extent to each manufacturer. However the specification for the cab front was quite specific so all the locomotive types ended up being superficially similar to look at. If each manufacturer had been encouraged to provide their own "look" for their loco type then we wouldn't now be talking about why such similar looking locos should be so technically different.

I know this doesn't answer the question but I thought we should possibly look at why the question needs to be asked!
 

MK Tom

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That's certainly helpful! Still the 83s and 84s do seem to have different cabs; the 84s especially seem to be more rounded and protruding at the bottom. Telling 81s and 85s apart visually is my biggest issue!! I'm also curious about the pantograph types used on them and why the 83s have those massive bodyside windows. Sorry if these seem like silly questions, but I've been puzzling over them for years on end!
 

Plan B

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I know some (especially the 84s) are electrically different, but I'd love to understand why there are five different 'roarer' classes. I'm also interested in what physical differences there are between them - 83s and 84s I can tell apart from the rest by sight but 81s and 85s look absolutely identical to me. Any help greatly appreciated.

Can I recommend "British Rail Main Line Electric Locomotives" by Colin J Marsden & Graham B Fenn. Out of print now but I got a copy a few years ago on Ebay.
Excellent descriptions of every class of loco from North Eastern No 1 of 1905 to Class 92 of 1995 - both built by Brush!
 

Polarbear

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If you can get hold of it, a copy of "British Rail Fleet Survey" by the late Brian Haresnape would also give you a wealth of information regarding most BR locos.

Offhand, I can't remember which edition featured the AC electric locos, but it only went up to class 87 so would have been published in the mid 1980's.
 

SGS

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That's certainly helpful! Still the 83s and 84s do seem to have different cabs; the 84s especially seem to be more rounded and protruding at the bottom. Telling 81s and 85s apart visually is my biggest issue!! I'm also curious about the pantograph types used on them and why the 83s have those massive bodyside windows. Sorry if these seem like silly questions, but I've been puzzling over them for years on end!

81s and 85s do look awfully similar. There are three things that I've noticed that are different about them at a glance:

First, the row of windows (on one bodyside) and row of grilles (on the other) are recessed in a sort of "strip" on the 85s. They are not recessed on the 81s. This is most noticable on the window side.

Second, on the cab front, the windscreen wipers on the 85s seem to originate in a little recessed rectangular box. They don't on the 81s.

Finally, also on the cab front, the horizontal handrails on each side of the headcode box, are dead level with the top of the headcode box on a 85. They are ever-so-slightly lower than the top of the headcode box, on an 81!
 

zoro

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81s and 85s do look awfully similar. There are three things that I've noticed that are different about them at a glance:

First, the row of windows (on one bodyside) and row of grilles (on the other) are recessed in a sort of "strip" on the 85s. They are not recessed on the 81s. This is most noticable on the window side.

Second, on the cab front, the windscreen wipers on the 85s seem to originate in a little recessed rectangular box. They don't on the 81s.

Finally, also on the cab front, the horizontal handrails on each side of the headcode box, are dead level with the top of the headcode box on a 85. They are ever-so-slightly lower than the top of the headcode box, on an 81!

These two pictures clearly show the details SGS is talking about.

81009 http://www.flickr.com/photos/40011/6127659272/in/set-72157627538357269

85005 http://www.flickr.com/photos/40011/6127787398/in/set-72157627507946011

Also of note is the different shaped brackets besides the bogies, and differences at the bottom of the cab door.
 
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Kneedown

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Try this link....

http://www.aclocogroup.co.uk/index.php

There are details and photo's of a preserved example of Class 81-85 inc.
There is also a good bibliography section containing publications that you might be able to pick up somewhere. Ebay may be a good starting place.

To tell the difference between classes, look at the ventilation grills and windows along the sides. Each class of loco has them in a different style and arrangement. In addition, the class 85 is unique among these classes by having said grills and windows set in a "depression" along both sides like an 86 or 87, rather than flush with the bodyside as on the other classes.
There are also differences with the bogies, the 82 having a noticable plate where the flexicoil springs would be on an 86/87. 84's also had oval buffers and droplight windows along the side.

I think the shape of the cab fronts is identical. I know what you mean though, when you say the 83's and 84's look a bit "chinnier" than the other's.
I think this is a visual effect with the painting of the yellow warning panels. On classes 81,82 and 85 the part of the panel that overlapped the cab side was painted vertically, ie ending in "l". On 83's and 84's the overlap was painted at an angle in a "/", which makes the cab look more protrusive at the bottom.
Hope you understand what i mean!

Regarding pantographs, i believe the standard Stone-Faiveley single arm type was standard in mainline service, two being fitted on production, one being removed to accomodate the three air resovoir cylinders whe the loco's were converted to dual air/vaccuum brakes.
In later years, certainly when restricted to ECS duties between Stonebridge Park and Euston, one or two of the 82's and 83's had the AEI cross arm pantograph fitted, as originally seen on the class 87.

Hope this helps.
 
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SGS

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These two pictures clearly show the details SGS is talking about.

81009 http://www.flickr.com/photos/40011/6127659272/in/set-72157627538357269

85005 http://www.flickr.com/photos/40011/6127787398/in/set-72157627507946011

Also of note is the different shaped brackets besides the bogies, and differences at the bottom of the cab door.

From your helpful links, I've just noticed a difference I hadn't noticed before - the bodyside of the Class 85 curves inwards at the bottom (sometimes heard this referrred to as "tumblehome") whereas the 81's bodyside does not, except around the cab.
 

zoro

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From your helpful links, I've just noticed a difference I hadn't noticed before - the bodyside of the Class 85 curves inwards at the bottom (sometimes heard this referrred to as "tumblehome") whereas the 81's bodyside does not, except around the cab.

I think the more you look at the pictures, the more differences there are.
 

MK Tom

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Many thanks to everyone, this has been very helpful and informative!

I find myself wondering why BR ordered so many variations rather than just designing its own (which it did in the 85s, which were easily the most successful) and building a ton of those.
 

sprinterguy

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I find myself wondering why BR ordered so many variations rather than just designing its own (which it did in the 85s, which were easily the most successful) and building a ton of those.
To assess the comparative advantages and disadvantages of different design features, construction methods and technologies to guide future procurement policy I shouldn't wonder, and to avoid placing all of their eggs in one basket with a relatively untested mode of operation as BR had with AC electric locomotives and potentially ordering a single large class of complete lemons: Can you imagine what would have happened if BR had only ordered a fleet of one hundred class 84s? :shock:

It may also have been in order to stimulate competition between private manufacturers in order to reduce the cost of the locomotives to BR.
 
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