Class 93 Tri-mode Loco

[Trainbike46]

So I'm theory one of these could take a Freightliner container load from Ipswich to Cardiff and use it's diesel / batteries for the short bit of missing wiring between the NLL and the GWML at Acton? There must be other examples where this applies, more of a gap filler than a 66 replacement.

but if the alternative that would have been used on those trains before, because there is a gap so a straight electric loco wouldn't work, was a 66 than a 93 would be replacing a 66

 

[ac6000cw]

Lickey incline (Bromsgrove). However it is now electrified, so theoretically no problems (assuming that the power supply can handle it, and power changeover at speed is permitted)

But if you wanted to maximise OHLE and minimise diesel mileage, wouldn't you go Wentloog - GWML - Acton - WCML - Daventry?

Doing Bristol Parkway/STJ - Bromsgrove on Diesel + Battery would probably be too slow with an economically worthwhile length/weight of freight train.

 

[Greybeard33]

Both 86s and 90s tend to get used in pairs because of the WCML challenges.

The economics of double heading does (just about) work for 86s and 90s that have little residual capital value. But I suspect the operating costs of a pair of 93s would greatly exceed those of a single 66....

 

[hwl]

The economics of double heading does (just about) work for 86s and 90s that have little residual capital value. But I suspect the operating costs of a pair of 93s would greatly exceed those of a single 66....

Which is exactly why the Cl. 99 exists...

 

[Dan G]

Well, they don't actually exist yet. An order for such a class does.

 

[The_Train]

Well, they don't actually exist yet. An order for such a class does.

I think there is now a frame for one complete

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think there is now a frame for one complete

There is; an official photograph was going round on Twitter a few days ago.

 

[800001]

There is; an official photograph was going round on Twitter a few days ago.

Gbrf’s twitter I believe

 

[Wyrleybart]

Tonyshrum - I would be interested to hear of your friend's qualifications.

AIUI the 93 is basically an improved class 88, and we know 88s work - within their capabilities. I would expect the 93 with it's bigger diesel engine to at least match class 88 performance, even if it cannot be significantly beaten.

Of course, the flux capacitor could have been installed the wrong way round at the factory - maybe

 

[birchesgreen]

Somehow i am sceptical that an experienced multi-national locomotive manufacturer would produce a loco that can barely move itself.

 

[Richard Scott]

Tonyshrum - I would be interested top hears of your friend's qualifications.

AIUI the 93 is basically an improved class 88, and we know 88s work - within their capabilities. I would expect the 93 with it's bigger diesel engine to at least match class 88 performance, even if it cannot be significantly beaten.

Of course, the flux capacitor could have been installed the wrong way round at the factory - maybe

Me too, can't believe something with 1200hp plus battery assistance would haul hardly anything especially with an AC drive system. 25s (similar installed engine power) used to haul quite heavy loads with DC drive systems and even a 73 on diesel is quite capable as long as speed isn't an issue!

 

[chazi898]

Realtime Trains | 5C19 0852 Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Carlisle | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5C19 0852 departure from Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Carlisle on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is this.. one of those test runs people have mooted about? I could go and see it

 

[Rail Quest]

Realtime Trains | 5C19 0852 Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Carlisle | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5C19 0852 departure from Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Carlisle on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is this.. one of those test runs people have mooted about? I could go and see it

Nahh pretty sure that isn't it. First off - I'm pretty sure the 93 isn't in Crewe yet and should be going to South Yard rather than the DB TMD. The TSC for that move is a DB move.

 

[800001]

Realtime Trains | 5C19 0852 Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Carlisle | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5C19 0852 departure from Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Carlisle on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is this.. one of those test runs people have mooted about? I could go and see it

Highly doubt it, the class 93 is still at Worksop, and as yet, has still not done a single move on the mainline, including light engine.

 

[chazi898]

Nevermind then, must've misread, I thought it had made it to Crewe..
When I was on the platform watching Royal Scot on tuesday, some guy showed me a video of a 321 going past, maybe its one of those.

 

[Rail Quest]

Nevermind then, must've misread, I thought it had made it to Crewe..
When I was on the platform watching Royal Scot on tuesday, some guy showed me a video of a 321 going past, maybe its one of those.

Tbf, recent posts on here indicate that it should have arrived in Crewe by now, along with the mk3 coaches that will supposedly be used as the test load. Alas, its not happened.

As for that move - I'm pretty sure it'll be a 325 but I'm not 100% on that

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Realtime Trains | 5C19 0852 Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Carlisle | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5C19 0852 departure from Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Carlisle on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Is this.. one of those test runs people have mooted about? I could go and see it

No it's a 325.

 

[chazi898]

No it's a 325.

Jumped the gun a bit - forgot RTT like showing 325s as Electric Locomotive for some reason :/
Although on the subject of pathing, would the Class 93 be pathed at 110mph I'm guessing..?

 

[Townsend Hook]

Jumped the gun a bit - forgot RTT like showing 325s as Electric Locomotive for some reason :/
Although on the subject of pathing, would the Class 93 be pathed at 110mph I'm guessing..?

It could be pathed as any number of things.

 

[zwk500]

Although on the subject of pathing, would the Class 93 be pathed at 110mph I'm guessing..?

It will depend what it's hauling!

 

[chazi898]

It will depend what it's hauling!

Yeah I was more thinking the test runs, just what to look out for.
Although another query is I'd be intrigued to know if it can actually do 110mph in diesel/battery mode. I guess time will tell.

 

[ac6000cw]

Yeah I was more thinking the test runs, just what to look out for.
Although another query is I'd be intrigued to know if it can actually do 110mph in diesel/battery mode. I guess time will tell.

There is a tractive effort versus speed comparison chart in post #243 (copied below). Note that at 110mph on diesel/battery the 93 tractive effort is only a bit below an HST.

Even with only one power car working, a complete HST on level track has a balancing speed of 110-115mph, so in theory the 93 hauling a modest load should do 110mph on diesel/battery (but it'll take a while to get to that speed).

Comparison of tractive effort from Rail Engineer 21st April 2021
View attachment 95577

 

[chazi898]

Interesting, so yes but it will take a while. I can only think of a few scenarios where it might do 110 on diesel/battery, because even most charter trains never go over 100, (unless LSL whip out their Intercity Mk3 rake more regularly) Mk2s limited to 100, etc. The remaining operators of push pull stock don't really want them anymore, sad as it may be (again, unless TfW have a revelation and switch to 93s), its looking bleak on the passenger side of the coin; I could see quite some potential, but its all dictated by the market I guess. I would love them over the pennines, but that's a fever dream now.

 

[Richard Scott]

There is a tractive effort versus speed comparison chart in post #243 (copied below). Note that at 110mph on diesel/battery the 93 tractive effort is only a bit below an HST.

Even with only one power car working, a complete HST on level track has a balancing speed of 110-115mph, so in theory the 93 hauling a modest load should do 110mph on diesel/battery (but it'll take a while to get to that speed).

Only a bit below an HST isn't saying much as TE very low at that speed!
How long will the battery last? Won't be at 110mph for long until battery depleted, if it makes it at all?

 

[Nottingham59]

Only a bit below an HST isn't saying much as TE very low at that speed!
How long will the battery last? Won't be at 110mph for long until battery depleted, if it makes it at all?

At 400kW, the 80kWh battery will last 1/5 of an hour, so about 10 minutes.

A single HST power car delivered 1320kW at the rail, effectively the same as a 93 on diesel+battery.

At 900kW on diesel alone, I'd expect the balancing speed of a 93 to be around 100-105mph hauling 8 mk3s and a deadweight class 43.

 

[43096]

At 400kW, the 80kWh battery will last 1/5 of an hour, so about 10 minutes.

A single HST power car delivered 1320kW at the rail, effectively the same as a 93 on diesel+battery.

At 900kW on diesel alone, I'd expect the balancing speed of a 93 to be around 100-105mph hauling 8 mk3s and a deadweight class 43.

Hang on, you need to be careful with those ratings. Is the 900kW diesel rating the output at the engine flywheel or at rail? Because I thought it was 900kW engine output. That’s before you make allowance for train supply…

 

[craigybagel]

. The remaining operators of push pull stock don't really want them anymore, sad as it may be (again, unless TfW have a revelation and switch to 93s),

As I've pointed out on other threads where it's been suggested (and I suspect someone else will have already said it here too but I've not had time to go through the whole thread) a 93 simply doesn't have the power on diesel to work the current TfW loco hauled services.

 

[Strat-tastic]

What's meant by 'balancing speed'?

 

[Richard Scott]

What's meant by 'balancing speed'?

Speed at which forward force due to locomotive balances with frictional forces so no longer accelerates.

 

[Nottingham59]

What's meant by 'balancing speed'?

Speed at which forward force due to locomotive balances with frictional forces so no longer accelerates.

And over 100mph, the friction is almost all wind resistance, which varies as the cube of the speed. (So doubling the power of a train will increase its balancing speed by around 25%.)