Class 91s post ICE

[me123]

The ECML is getting new trains about 2012-2014. NO surprise there. I've seen that they will replace both HSTs and class 91 trainsets (as the new trains are powered by both OHLE and Diesel).

Is there any news on where the 91s are going, if anywhere? They seem a bit young to be scrapped, even in 2014, and it would be a shame to see such fantastically used trains just going to waste.

 

[class 313]

There would be no where else for the 91s to go...

 

[Jordy]

London - Norwich?

 

[O L Leigh]

Who says the ECML will see total stock replacement?

one TN

 

[class 313]

London - Norwich?

Is the line mostly 125mph?

 

[me123]

Who says the ECML will see total stock replacement?

It implies that, as it will "replace"the class 91+MkIV trains currently servicing the route.

Of course, there is nowhere for them to go unless they electrify, say, London to Bristol and transfer the sets to the GW franchise. Or upgrade the line to Norwich.

Of course, NXEC could keep the trains on to provide additional services on the route.

 

[The Snap]

WCML? Give them Virgin...?

 

[me123]

They've got their Pendos and I'd imagine Virgin (or whoever's operating the franchise at the time) would rather have ICE stock.

 

[Jordy]

Is the line mostly 125mph?

No. Doesn't mean they can't be used though!

 

[adamp]

How about the 91's replace all pacers :mad:

- I wish.

 

[ChrisCooper]

By the time they are replaced on the ECML, the newest will be over 20 years old, the oldest around 25, and for a small, specialist fleet at that age, scrapping or export is quite likely. This is exactly what happened to their predecessors, the Deltics, which only just made 20 years before withdrawal (and not all did). I really can't see anywhere else for them to go. Norwich will very likely get units to replace the 90s, and to be honest I think people on that route arn't going to look that well on getting another batch of run into the ground, second hand locos and carriages. If the GWML (or MML) is electrified, I'm sure they would want new units to go with it, afterall, big projects like that tend to go the whole way, replacing (or upgrading) the track, signalling and trains, and probably a lot of station work, aswell as just electrifying. Even if they were to move somewhere else, the chances are the whole fleet wouldn't go, it would just be a fairly small part.

 

[Chris.waring]

The 91's were origionaly developed to haul passenger during the day and freight at night or off peak hence the second driving cab. Could their not be a future for them on fast freight workings?

 

[djw1981]

Hmm the cl86's will be even older by that time, so the 91 could move to freight, especially is cl92's are increasingly being used through the tunnel.

The Mk4's could be incorporated with some diesel loco's - HST?????? After all HST PC's have mostly just been re-engined and with overhaul could be good for another 20 years.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I don't think the 91s were ever intended for freight work, or would be at all suited to it. The second cab was provided to enable use on sleepers. The way things are going on the railways now, I expect FLs 86s will be replaced by Diesels, likely needed due to running less on electrified lines. The DfT and TfL want as much freight off the NLL and WCML as possible, which would mean diverting via none electrified routes, e.g the the Harwich and Felixstow FLs running via the "cross country" route to Nuneaton.
The 91s are inferior to, or at least no better than, the 90s for anything but their current work anyway. Very few other workings would give the chance for running above 110mph (which is their top speed with the blunt end first anyway), and on slower, start stop work their performance is inferior, as is their pulling power. The 91s actually lack the same raw power as 90s, and what power they do have is locked away at higher speeds, to enable them to reach 140mph. Not sure what the tractive effort is on a 91, but I doubt it beats the 90, due to the higher gearing on the 91. When 90s were used on the ECML alongside 91s, a 90 could quite easily beat a 91 when the latter was running blunt end first, and had no trouble keeping up with 91s on start-stop Leeds workings.

 

[O L Leigh]

Having experience riding behind both Skodas and Super Skodas on the ECML, I think that part of the Cl90's advantage comes from the way in which the Cl91 works with the Mk4 set.

I'm not sure of the precise technical niceties of the IC225, but it always appeared to pull away very gently so as not to transmit any nasty acceleration forces into the train. It was really quite a nice experience not to realise that the train had even started away until you glance out of the window and see your station slipping by. My feeling is that this was achieved by an automatic system that slowly released the brakes while the power was gently fed in. As such, the Super Skoda was designed specifically to work with the Mk4 set as a thoroughbred express loco but with possible subsidiary roles that it could fulfil from time to time.

Stick a regular Skoda, which is a general purpose loco, on the back of a Mk4 set and it didn't work with the train in the same way as the Super Skoda, and boy could you tell. Instead of the normal experience of gently wafting out the platform, there would be a hard jolt as the loco accelerated at full bore into the back of the train while the brakes were still releasing. I believe that they eventually tweaked the driving policy so that the driver didn't just give it the beans if there was a Skoda on the back, but to notch up gradually. However, once the brakes were off the Skoda would just sprint off. Whether that was just down to the difference in gearing or some system on the Super Skoda that held it back I couldn't say, but I suspect the latter has more to do with it. When the original batch of ten were pushing around an HST set they accelerated like a rocket.

one TN

 

[Craig]

I don't think the 91s were ever intended for freight work, or would be at all suited to it. The second cab was provided to enable use on sleepers.

The 91s are inferior to, or at least no better than, the 90s for anything but their current work anyway. Very few other workings would give the chance for running above 110mph (which is their top speed with the blunt end first anyway), and on slower, start stop work their performance is inferior, as is their pulling power. The 91s actually lack the same raw power as 90s, and what power they do have is locked away at higher speeds, to enable them to reach 140mph. Not sure what the tractive effort is on a 91, but I doubt it beats the 90, due to the higher gearing on the 91. When 90s were used on the ECML alongside 91s, a 90 could quite easily beat a 91 when the latter was running blunt end first, and had no trouble keeping up with 91s on start-stop Leeds workings.

And you base all this on...? As the majority of it is wrong!

Yes they were intended for freight work too, apparently were used when new for a bit but when all the mk4s were out their use depleted to passenger, plenty of freight cover otherwise. Light a 91 is extremely fast and can handle a big load, even if they can be slow to pick up.

A 90 can only match a 91 diagram due to it's lack of 15mph extra, over an hour that's some distance. Out running it doesn't happen as the majority of the ECML is 125 mph from Knebworth to Northallerton. They are slow to pick up but they provide a good push up to 125 when moving, it's not hard to get one there considering they are 140 capable.

The second cab was provided so it could be driven from either end and designed as such (slab end) to provide better aerodynamics, particularly around the pantograph, at 125mph. When running slab end first there is considering push on the pantograph caused by air currents so the limit is there to avoid wire damage.

The power on 91s isn't "locked away" they are governed to not provide power (or rather to provide power to hold at) 125mph.

Where do you get your facts?

P.S Paragraphs are fun, try it sometime!

 

[PhilipW]

The Class 91s could be used on the Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh route, now mainly Voyagers as Virgin does not have enough Pendolinos to cover the route.

When the penny eventually drops with the DfT that would be a good idea to electrify Manchester-Preston, they can be used on Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services as well.

When the second penny drops that it may also be a good idea to extend the electrification from Preston to Blackpool, they can then be used on restoring London-Blackpool services. This will give extra capacity on the WCML (2 tph from Euston to Preston) and satisfy the current dampened demand from Blackpool.

I suspect eventually that these pennies will drop. It may still take a while, but I believe it will come.

 

[Doorslammer]

However it's done, I do hope a new use elsewhere is found for the 91s. It does still seem like yesterday they came out to me...

What options are there for export and would they be reduced thanks to all the different voltages used elsewhere?

 

[me123]

The Class 91s could be used on the Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh route, now mainly Voyagers as Virgin does not have enough Pendolinos to cover the route.

When the penny eventually drops with the DfT that would be a good idea to electrify Manchester-Preston, they can be used on Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services as well.

When the second penny drops that it may also be a good idea to extend the electrification from Preston to Blackpool, they can then be used on restoring London-Blackpool services. This will give extra capacity on the WCML (2 tph from Euston to Preston) and satisfy the current dampened demand from Blackpool.

I suspect eventually that these pennies will drop. It may still take a while, but I believe it will come.

Thing is, would Virgin want (what are effectively) second-hand GNER trains? They've got the Pendos. OK, they're not getting anymore trainsets, just the carriages, but would they want the non-tilting IC225s? I believe they had their tilt option removed recently. Without tilt, the voyagers can go faster and are therefore of benefit to Virgin.

 

[western Champion]

The smooth start from a 91 when pushing is simply down to a software mod.

Before the Pendo revolution when we used to drive the 90's on Virgin West Coast, I asked a very well known and knowledgeable person on the maintenance why we couldn't achieve this with 90's, his reply was that it was a software mod done to the 91's which wasn't considered worth doing on 90's due to the cost and the projected short time remaining then for us using them on Virgin.

Now whether or not National Express consider it worth doing when they start using 90's with Mark 3's soon remains to be seen. If not their Driver's and more likely their customers are in for a shock compared to the 91's.

 

[O L Leigh]

As I suspected.

GNER drivers are now well used to Skodas and how to drive them smoothly. A software mod is not required fur push-pull operation, as 'one' have demonstrated.

one TN

 

[PhilipW]

In 1974 when the line north of Weaver Junction was electrified, Birmingham-Glasgow services were proudly branded as "Midland Scot".

Thirty four years later, services between the nation's second and third largest cities have to be diesel powered because we don't have enough electric locomotives to go around.

What a sad state of affairs which reflects very badly on both the railway industry as a whole and the politicians who drive it.

I hope this can be corrected as soon as possible.

 

[87015]

Thirty four years later, services between the nation's second and third largest cities have to be diesel powered because we don't have enough electric locomotives to go around.

We have plenty of electric locos, so much so that 87s are being exported, 90s and 92s are stored...... Quality Mk2/Mk3 unused (or sold off to be underused ie DRS, Cargo-D) and yet three or four car fuel hungry DMUs are the order of the day over Shap and Beattock on Brum and Manchester-Scotland services. What a way to run a railway!!:x

 

[me123]

Meanwhile, diesel trains all over the uk are overcrowded...