Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

[captainbigun]

Remote control via RF isn't new. The South African ore trains use locos throughout the train, mixture of 50kV AC and diesel remote controlled via RF. They can be switched in/out of use as required.

68s have AAR for Chiltern, but it's not a full AAR implementation. They have native multi, asdo the 88s.

 

[Sunbird24]

The basic RF system used in places like South Africa, Australia and USA works fine in wide open spaces such as found in those huge countries but was found to be unsuited to the relatively cramped conditions in Europe with its numerous large conurbations, long tunnels and multiplicity of signalling systems and electrification due to problems found with interference between the various systems and frequent loss of proper communications so a new system had to be devised to overcome all these problems. The Marathon Project was a collaboration of a score of companies throughout Europe to develop a system which would work throughout Europe and without causing any problems with signalling systems and the like. Several locomotive types were used in the trials. Many locomotive types can have part of the system built in with the controllers being a plug-in device which can be easily fitted and removed as required.
While the Marathon project was primarily concerned with increasing train lengths the technology used remains the same for all other purposes related to the control of one locomotive from another remotely, as was demonstrated to me at Vossloh.

 

[richieb1971]

If the wagons/coaches were lower than the height of the locomotive some form of "line of sight" technology could be used.

 

[rebmcr]

If the wagons/coaches were lower than the height of the locomotive some form of "line of sight" technology could be used.

Not in a curved tunnel it couldn't.

 

[richieb1971]

Correct, but then it sounds like none of the technologies talked about work in every eventuality.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Correct, but then it sounds like none of the technologies talked about work in every eventuality.

I suppose if a technology for communication of control does not work in every eventuality then its useless. It must be safety critical ?. Cannot expect things to be OK except for the times the train is going through a curved tunnel. Even a curved cutting or a curve with a bridge half way along must be a concern as far as line of sight goes.

So does this mean locos talking to each other down the length of a train is only feasible with a wire.

I guess line of sight would be feasible in a yard where the operator is nearby and obviously able to view proceedings (so line of sight would exist). The locos could refuse to work (so stop) if/when the signal is lost/failing.

 

[Sunbird24]

I suppose if a technology for communication of control does not work in every eventuality then its useless. It must be safety critical ?. Cannot expect things to be OK except for the times the train is going through a curved tunnel. Even a curved cutting or a curve with a bridge half way along must be a concern as far as line of sight goes.

So does this mean locos talking to each other down the length of a train is only feasible with a wire.

I guess line of sight would be feasible in a yard where the operator is nearby and obviously able to view proceedings (so line of sight would exist). The locos could refuse to work (so stop) if/when the signal is lost/failing.

It was systems in use 7 years ago which did not work satisfactorily
The system devised by the Marathon Project has been proved to work, as I stated earlier, with links to technical details and the final result reports. The French were planning to implement it late last year on the first route subject to the necessary infrastructure changes being implemented, IE., 1500 metre loops at either end of the section. Whether that has happened I don't know.

 

[apk55]

Could radio remote control not work by using the GSM radio system used for communication to the drivers. This is supposed to work everywhere using for example leaky feeders in tunnels.

 

[Sunbird24]

Here again are the two links explaining the reasoning behind the Marathon project:
http://cordis.europa.eu/result/rcn/163355_en.html
http://fudinfo.trafikverket.se/fudi...ation_002627/2763-MARATHON-HANDBOOK-FINAL.pdf

 

[bahnause]

I suppose if a technology for communication of control does not work in every eventuality then its useless.

About 15 years ago, we used analog radio communication technology to remote control the loco at the end of some freight trains on the (old) Gotthard route. Lots of tunnels and mountains as you can imagine, so it was impossible for the radio units to keep communication alive all the time. In the case of communication getting lost, the loco at the rear of the train would just keep the last known state. However, a brake application (air brake) would cut off power and apply the dynamic brake of the remote controlled loco, so the brake pipe acted as the "second channel" of the system.

 

[Sunbird24]

Back to the main topic now, 88003 Genesis is on its way.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...512.1073741994.1192973669&type=1&l=627fa58e93

 

[Peter Sarf]

Back to the main topic now, 88003 Genesis is on its way.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...512.1073741994.1192973669&type=1&l=627fa58e93

Thanks for the information.

It that going to be a single delivery or are we expecting the/a ship to carry more than one 88 ?. I seem to recall it being suggested the next deliveries might be for more than one loco at a time.

 

[Sunbird24]

Thanks for the information.

It that going to be a single delivery or are we expecting the/a ship to carry more than one 88 ?. I seem to recall it being suggested the next deliveries might be for more than one loco at a time.

No idea on that yet Peter, no sign of 1, 4 & 5 at the factory but... they could be inside... went to my usual spot to photo it on the motorway but didn't see it so no idea which way it went. Could not see anything at Sagunto port either, only lots of trams, cars and steel coils as usual. 6, 10 and a new 68 were visible at the factory, did not see 7-9 either.
3 & 4 were said to be going first for driver training and lots of other rumours abound as usual.
I'll just watch for ships leaving for Workington.
Many of the vehicle carriers only have loading ramps rated to 40 or 45 tons max so they can take trams and MU vehicles but not heavy locos.

 

[Sunbird24]

Update: as of yesterday 88001, 88003, 88005, 88008 and one other have been moved to Sagunto docks and are awaiting a ship to take them to Workington. As usual I will let you know if I get any further details.
Pictures here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...298.1073741996.1192973669&type=1&l=3cb8c0a742

 

[Topgun333]

How will an 88 compare with existing electric locos such as 90s, 91s and 92s in terms of performance?

 

[Sunbird24]

How will an 88 compare with existing electric locos such as 90s, 91s and 92s in terms of performance?

88 is mixed traffic, 92 is heavy freight and 91 is high speed passenger so not a true comparison. Probably better than a 90 in electric mode, about similar to an old type 2/3 on diesel subject to load/speed requirements. Cannot realistically supply power to a passenger train in diesel mode as this could reduce its performance dramatically, though T and T with another would be OK. Still lots of tests to do to determine its actual performance in a real-life situation.

 

[Rhydgaled]

88 is mixed traffic, 92 is heavy freight and 91 is high speed passenger so not a true comparison. Probably better than a 90 in electric mode

I thought 92s were mixed traffic also, having been built with intent to use them on the Nightstar trains that never happened and more-recently being used on the under-wires parts of the Scottish sleeper operation. Also, Wikipedia states a 92 has a top speed of 87mph; not quite the 110mph of a class 90 but still faster than the heavy-freight class 60s which only do 60mph according to Wikipedia.

Good to know that the 88s are on their way, now how about a commitment to a rolling programme of electrification (a slow one, since budget pressures mean it can't be done quickly, but nonetheless continuity of work for an electrification team)?

 

[furnessvale]

How will an 88 compare with existing electric locos such as 90s, 91s and 92s in terms of performance?

Given modern electronics etc, an 88 should outperform 90s and 91s, but for sheer grunt on heavy freights the 92 will win by having 2 more axles.

 

[Sunbird24]

To clarify my earlier post #404, the fifth loco at Sagunto is 88004 Pandora.
88006 Juno and 88007 are still at the factory.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Update: as of yesterday 88001, 88003, 88005, 88008 and one other have been moved to Sagunto docks and are awaiting a ship to take them to Workington. As usual I will let you know if I get any further details.
Pictures here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...298.1073741996.1192973669&type=1&l=3cb8c0a742

Thanks for the info. Looks like the fleet is really coming. EDIT 88004 as well I now see.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

General cargo vessel 'Eemslift Nellie' is due to dock at Sagunto in a few hours time to load 4 locos for delivery to Workington docks.

 

[Sunbird24]

General cargo vessel 'Eemslift Nellie' is due to dock at Sagunto in a few hours time to load 4 locos for delivery to Workington docks.

It may be due on paper but it is several hundred miles away going nowhere at the moment! And there are 5 locos waiting to be loaded.
Link to my picture: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210580084476991&set=gm.1260558284033765&type=3&theater

 

[SpacePhoenix]

but it is several hundred miles away going nowhere at the moment!

Is there a "nautical equivalent" of Real Time Trains?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is there a "nautical equivalent" of Real Time Trains?

There is, but I've forgotten what it's called! AIS or something similar?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There is, but I've forgotten what it's called! AIS or something similar?

That pointed me in the right direction, cheers!

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home

 

[Sunbird24]

That ship is here at the moment https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:251966/zoom:9 still over 300 nm to go at 4.9 kn = over 60 hours! Another ship Hermana is near the locos at present.
Edit: it is finally up to speed again and could arrive tomorrow night.
My pictures of the 88s on the dock at Sagunto on the 18th and 20th January are here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...046.1073741997.1192973669&type=1&l=624579ee6e

 

[Peter Sarf]

That ship is here at the moment https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:251966/zoom:9 still over 300 nm to go at 4.9 kn = over 60 hours! Another ship Hermana is near the locos at present.

Is it possible three are for one ship and two for the other ?.

 

[The Planner]

Given modern electronics etc, an 88 should outperform 90s and 91s, but for sheer grunt on heavy freights the 92 will win by having 2 more axles.

Plus the fact a 92 has more power than a 88.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Nellie does seem to making heavy weather of the journey, although she is heading in the right direction.

Apologies if the info turns out to be duff but it can be quite addictive following shipping on AIS

 

[Darandio]

I thought 92s were mixed traffic also, having been built with intent to use them on the Nightstar trains that never happened and more-recently being used on the under-wires parts of the Scottish sleeper operation. Also, Wikipedia states a 92 has a top speed of 87mph; not quite the 110mph of a class 90 but still faster than the heavy-freight class 60s which only do 60mph according to Wikipedia.

If we are going by definition of what was intended when built, then the Class 91 is also a mixed traffic locomotive.

But we aren't, and that isn't what sunbird24 meant.