Class 86s in Pairs

[E_Reeves]

I have always wondered, why do class 86's often travel in pairs? I don't know whether this is because they may not be powerful enough on their own? I don't know?

 

[Iskra]

They're pretty powerful, I think it's more a reliability thing now they're ageing.

 

[E_Reeves]

They're pretty powerful, I think it's more a reliability thing now they're ageing.

Just over 50 years old, I believe. Thanks!

 

[ginge8991]

Did Freightliner not do something to them that made it impossible for them to run alone except for a few exceptions?

 

[E_Reeves]

Did Freightliner not do something to them that made it impossible for them to run alone except for a few exceptions?

I don't think so, some still run on their own, but not many. I think another reason would be that they can transport the locos to different depots more so they don't have to run as light engines.

 

[PHILIPE]

Are 2 needed to get them up Shap and Beattock. The Bankers went out with steam.

 

[GM228]

I've also wondered this too as I always thought they had to work in pairs (except the 86/5) due to their gearing and power at rail for the liners.

Also thought it odd that they substitute a 86/86 for a 86/90 (in multiple) the odd time when the 90 is well able on its own?

 

[Bungle965]

86501 actually had modifications to it so that it would be able to pull what 2 86`s could I believe.
Sam

 

[furnessvale]

Are 2 needed to get them up Shap and Beattock. The Bankers went out with steam.

The power of one loco would be sufficient but wheelslip in inclement weather is the problem.

A liner train has to be able to restart from a dead stand on Shap and Beattock even with greasy rails.

Years ago I thought that converting 85s into US style slugs would have enabled a single 86 to distribute its power over 4 more axles saving the second loco for other duties. That possibility is now long gone.

 

[455driver]

Also thought it odd that they substitute a 86/86 for a 86/90 (in multiple) the odd time when the 90 is well able on its own?

Is one of the locos simply hitching a lift?
If its in the train it may as well be powering.

 

[306024]

A pair of 86s can successfully come to a stand on Brentwood bank, never mind Shap or Beatock, as proved a few Saturdays before Christmas.

Incidentally there were 2 pairs of 86s stabled at Ipswich this morning which I can't recall seeing for ages.

 

[43096]

A pair of 86s can successfully come to a stand on Brentwood bank, never mind Shap or Beatock, as proved a few Saturdays before Christmas.



Incidentally there were 2 pairs of 86s stabled at Ipswich this morning which I can't recall seeing for ages.

Might be as a result of the Lamington block which will require diesel haulage on diversionary routes. Using the 86s to Ipswich would free up 66s/70s.

 

[306024]

86501 actually had modifications to it so that it would be able to pull what 2 86`s could I believe.

I was told 86501 was effectively a class 90 disguised to look like a class 86.

 

[Bungle965]

I was told 86501 was effectively a class 90 disguised to look like a class 86.

Billy no mates was the nickname for it, and yes I think it had as much pulling power as a 90.
Sam

 

[captainbigun]

86/6s used in pairs as that's what's required to shift the load up hill and down dale at line speed. There's nothing better in the UK at this job.

 

[Class 170101]

86501 is usually allowed to run on its own.

The rest usually run in pairs but have been seen to operate singly.

Freightliner Class 90s are covering the sleepers currently. So Class 70s are covering their freight duties.

 

[captainbigun]

86501 was re-geared to give a traction curve which would allow it to cover the same load as a 90.

501 is now being returned to an 86/6.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

86501 was re-geared to give a traction curve which would allow it to cover the same load as a 90.

501 is now being returned to an 86/6.

It's currently parked outside at Crewe, photographable from passing trains if anyone needs pictures of it before it reverts.

 

[59CosG95]

86637 is STILL outside Penrith, awaiting removal and repair...

 

[eastwestdivide]

Way back in the 1980s, pairs of electrics (including 87+87) were used on WCML freightliner (intermodal) services over the steep northern bits. Also pairs on other freights, including a steel coils service from Ravenscraig.

 

[zn1]

plenty of jobs where the 86s work singly on the liners, lots of toe from standstill for pulling power ..

 

[70014IronDuke]

BR began using two electric locos for freightliners in, I think, 1974 over Shap and Beattock. Not sure if they were Cl 86/1s or earlier models Cl 85s ? or both.

Only they had no jumper cables, so needed two crews. And crews in the second loco were complaining of excessive flashing from the leading loco's pantograph, impairing their vision at night.

 

[sprinterguy]

BR began using two electric locos for freightliners in, I think, 1974 over Shap and Beattock. Not sure if they were Cl 86/1s or earlier models Cl 85s ? or both.

To follow this up with some additional information, neither the 85s nor the 86s were originally fitted with multiple working equipment (and the 85s never were).

The freight class 86s were fitted with multi-pin multiple working jumpers in the early to mid eighties, as class 86/0s, 86/3s and 86/4s. These were later superseded by RCH standard Time Division Multiplex jumpers, which were also fitted to the passenger class 86/1 and 86/2 locos in the mid to late eighties to allow them to work in push-pull mode with DBSOs and DVTs.

 

[AM9]

To follow this up with some additional information, neither the 85s nor the 86s were originally fitted with multiple working equipment (and the 85s never were).

The freight class 86s were fitted with multi-pin multiple working jumpers in the early to mid eighties, as class 86/0s, 86/3s and 86/4s. These were later superseded by RCH standard Time Division Multiplex jumpers, which were also fitted to the passenger class 86/1 and 86/2 locos in the mid to late eighties to allow them to work in push-pull mode with DBSOs and DVTs.

The 86s were originally built with nose-hung motors. Do they still have them and if so have they reconciled the issue of increased track damage? When 501 got its uprating, were the motors the same mounting or were they changed to something like a quill drive?

 

[captainbigun]

Given that you can't change the motor mounting without changing the bogies your answer is no. With the exception of the 86/1s which received BP9s as a part of the prototype work for the 87s.

Resilient wheels and additional 'zebedee' suspension mostly resolved the excessive track forces issue.

86501 and the 86/6s have solid wheels and are limited to 75 and 80 respectively.

 

[sprinterguy]

The 86s were originally built with nose-hung motors. Do they still have them and if so have they reconciled the issue of increased track damage? When 501 got its uprating, were the motors the same mounting or were they changed to something like a quill drive?

My technical understanding on this matter is limited, but as far as I know the problems were solved by the fitting of Flexicoil suspension, informed by high speed tests undertaken with E3173, later 86204, during 1969/70, and SAB low-trackforce resilient wheelsets. These were fitted first to the passenger locos between 1972 and 1974, being classified as class 86/2 in the process, and at a later date to a number of the freight locomotives that had otherwise been limited to a maximum of 80mph, being renumbered as 86/3s and, later 86/4s.

 

[rebmcr]

To follow this up with some additional information, neither the 85s nor the 86s were originally fitted with multiple working equipment (and the 85s never were).

The freight class 86s were fitted with multi-pin multiple working jumpers in the early to mid eighties, as class 86/0s, 86/3s and 86/4s. These were later superseded by RCH standard Time Division Multiplex jumpers, which were also fitted to the passenger class 86/1 and 86/2 locos in the mid to late eighties to allow them to work in push-pull mode with DBSOs and DVTs.

As far as I'm aware, DVTs just have throttle-style power handles, whereas the 86s are controlled using a tap changer and an ammeter display — did drivers using TDM just have to estimate the required inputs and the resulting effects?

 

[captainbigun]

My technical understanding on this matter is limited, but as far as I know the problems were solved by the fitting of Flexicoil suspension, informed by high speed tests undertaken with E3173, later 86204, during 1969/70, and SAB low-trackforce resilient wheelsets. These were fitted first to the passenger locos between 1972 and 1974, being classified as class 86/2 in the process, and at a later date to a number of the freight locomotives that had otherwise been limited to a maximum of 80mph, being renumbered as 86/3s and, later 86/4s.

86/3s had SABs but no Flexicoils. Only 86/4s had both. 86/2s were built with both.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I'm aware, DVTs just have throttle-style power handles, whereas the 86s are controlled using a tap changer and an ammeter display — did drivers using TDM just have to estimate the required inputs and the resulting effects?

Correct, DVTs have a strapless controller which fed 8 bits on the TDM giving 256 steps in effect. A piece of kit in the 86/87s converted the 8 bit TE demand to current demand and through a feedback mechanism with actual current being monitored and an upper limit notched the tap changer to give a current matched to the demand. That piece of kit was called the tractive effort translator, TET.

 

[sprinterguy]

86/3s had SABs but no Flexicoils. Only 86/4s had both. 86/2s were built with both.

Good point with regard the 86/3s, but the locos that became the 86/2s were not fitted with Flexicoil suspension from new: There is plenty of photographic evidence that no class 86s were fitted with Flexicoil suspension before the testbed E3173.

 

[8A Rail]

Pair of 86's seem to be on the long distant liner flows over the last few years regardless of the route. Depending on time of year 4L92 Ditton-Felixstowe is a regular for pair of 86's. Single Class 86's seem to haul shorter flows such as 4K64 Garston FLT - Crewe BH.