Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Railperf]

Si

It would be interesting to see reliability data for the 222s and 810s side by side. With the 222s in their current state I'm not convinced the 810s are that much worse. EMR's statements indicate they are clearly frustrated with Hitachi's delivery on both fleets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2026 ==


That account is known for stirring nonsense, I'd take it with a pinch of salt tbh

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2026 ==


What is the source of this alleged "remote performance modelling"?

Signal berth timings!

 

[QSK19]

4 years late and still not fit for service. If EMR were a person theyd send the 810's back and ask for a refund.

Indeed. Whilst Covid was permissible as an excuse for some amount of time, it certainly doesn’t hold for practically 5 years (IIRC, first weld in January 2021, entry into service December 2025).

Surely Hitachi must have known that cramming 26 metres’ worth of stuff into 24-metre cars is flawed. Almost makes me wonder whether the FLIRT or Aventra possibilities would have been better, but it is what it is - 810s to rule the roost for potentially 35-40 years.

 

[43074]

Signal berth timings!

You have alleged 75% of the units in traffic on a particular day were operating with an engine out, but unless you are actually sat on the unit and seeing how they are being driven you can't use the signal berth timings to conclude anything

 

[800001]

4 years late and still not fit for service. If EMR were a person theyd send the 810's back and ask for a refund.

January 2023 was when I first saw 810001 outside at Merchant Park, by that point they should have all been built.
To think that even now the last 2 units are still in production is unbelievable.
And we still have 001/003/004/008/009 all still to return to Aycliffe to be made into passenger acceptable units

 

[GWVillager]

Indeed. Whilst Covid was permissible as an excuse for some amount of time, it certainly doesn’t hold for practically 5 years (IIRC, first weld in January 2021, entry into service December 2025).

Surely Hitachi must have known that cramming 26 metres’ worth of stuff into 24-metre cars is flawed. Almost makes me wonder whether the FLIRT or Aventra possibilities would have been better, but it is what it is - 810s to rule the roost for potentially 35-40 years.

Given how much they cost to operate, I’d be very, very surprised if any 80X derivative makes it to 35 years! It’s not even out of the question that they might not reach 20… as unlikely as it would be.

On this vein, whilst it’s too early to get proper figures, I can’t imagine the 810s being any cheaper to run than the others. Has this been properly factored in by EMR/the DfT?

 

[800001]

Given how much they cost to operate, I’d be very, very surprised if any 80X derivative makes it to 35 years! It’s not even out of the question that they might not reach 20… as unlikely as it would be.

On this vein, whilst it’s too early to get proper figures, I can’t imagine the 810s being any cheaper to run than the others. Has this been properly factored in by EMR/the DfT?

Isn't the GWR and LNER fleet subject to a 27 year contract?

 

[Railperf]

You have alleged 75% of the units in traffic on a particular day were operating with an engine out, but unless you are actually sat on the unit and seeing how they are being driven you can't use the signal berth timings to conclude anything

As I might have explained up thread, the working timetable demands full power acceleration from each station.
There is no leeway for faffing around.

And therefore the time from a station start to each subsequent signal will be slower if the trains is down on power than a set running with all engines providing traction power. There are sets running round with five and four engines running but one of the engines is NOT contributing to traction power - usually remains idling.

Before the 810's arrived, we noted that Class 222 sets produces timings that fitted into three major time groupings depending on whether the sets were receiving tractive power from either five, four or three engines.

Each set runs a diagram through the day where it will perform multiple station stops at the same station. So, over the course of a day there are dozens of station starts that paint a picture of the units state. The evidence becomes overwhelming.

I can assure you that if we identify berth timings for a set that suggests it is on only three engines, and locate that set during the day, then we will indeed find that only three engines are providing traction power.

The same applies to Class 810's as we have identifies they sets fall into three quite tight groups of timings for sets running on all four, three or two engines!

 

[MargaretNoodle]

Incidentally I was on 810 013 on Thursday, as it happens trying to measure its acceleration myself just as a bit of fun, on my way back from Leicester. I've not really done this before so I didn't have anything to compare my data to in terms of other Auroras but I certainly didn't get the impression the 810 was delivering the full performance it was specced to - certainly it wasn't accelerating like a 222 on all engines, so I did wonder if an engine was out or if full power wasn't being given for another reason.

 

[andyjhatton]

Certainly a bit ironic that MML electrification was "paused" because the 810 trains meant it wasn't required.

 

[D365]

That account is known for stirring nonsense, I'd take it with a pinch of salt tbh

Quite. I wish there was a facility on the forum to ignore all posts with links to "Chime Whistle Publishing".

What is the source of this alleged "remote performance modelling"?

I too would like to find out.

 

[Mugby]

Certainly a bit ironic that MML electrification was "paused" because the 810 trains meant it wasn't required.

Ah, the perils of the dreadful Mr Grayling!

 

[fgwrich]

I wonder who the third party is mentioned in this tweet attached.

DfT??

Could be, could also be Alstom who understandably are only supplying short term maintenance contracts due to Hitachi being primarily responsible for another fleet they didn’t build.

I think, in particular, the use of “their” in relation to Hitachi’s maintenance of the 222s was telling. As in, “we’re sick and tired of getting all the flak when it’s out of our control, it’s down to Hitachi” - EMR firmly and unambiguously putting it at Hitachi’s door. Whilst that’s correct IMO, some blame does have to be attributed to whoever awarded the maintenance contract to Hitachi - who were never going to do anything more than the bare minimum.

Back to the 810s, Hitachi are making at least some effort to get the 810s working properly (I’ve seen Hitachi personnel trying to implement fixes whilst on board); but IMO it’s clear that, other factors aside, they’re not fit to enter service yet.

It’s not the first time that we’ve seen this from Hitachi upon taking on the maintenance for legacy fleets - does anyone happen to have the figures to hand for the LNER HST and 91 fleet when they were responsibility of Craigentinny and Bounds Green respectively.

 

[Amos390]

810018 looks to have its return after over a month in the depot (last service since was on Jun 12), operating the flow beginning with 1C11

 

[Richard Scott]

Ah, the perils of the dreadful Mr Grayling!

Also find Labour did the same thing?

 

[GilfachFargoed]

Isn't the GWR and LNER fleet subject to a 27 year contract?

Yes, the 'Agility Trains' fleets - all the LNER sets and the GWR 800s are on 27-year contracts. I recall talk of the 159s not being solid enough to last long when introduced on Waterloo - Exeter and yet here we are over 30 years later.

 

[GWVillager]

Isn't the GWR and LNER fleet subject to a 27 year contract?

The contract also specifies working trains, something that GWR certainly doesn’t have, and they are the operator with the closest use pattern to EMR!

Yes, the 'Agility Trains' fleets - all the LNER sets and the GWR 800s are on 27-year contracts. I recall talk of the 159s not being solid enough to last long when introduced on Waterloo - Exeter and yet here we are over 30 years later.

At risk of going off topic, this is a very different situation. It’s not about how ‘solid’ they are, it’s about how they are costing an inordinate amount of money (GWR’s stock costs, for example, have increased by about 500% post-IET, something other operators with different fleets haven’t seen) all whilst the contract to actually deliver functioning trains isn’t being met.

My concern here is that, even if the 810s get to GWR 80X standards of availability, it is very difficult to see how this can be considered an acceptable state for a fleet, and did EMR/the DfT factor this in when agreeing financial settlements and/or choosing rolling stock numbers?

 

[QSK19]

Ah, the perils of the dreadful Mr Grayling!

Also find Labour did the same thing?

Indeed, first Failing Grayling and later on Snidey Heidi. Let’s see if she gets the chop under Burnham.

 

[800001]

Article in Inews (behind paywall) picked up about the HS2 contract being given to a company (Hitachi) who's trains keep breaking down, referring to EMR.

New HS2 farce as firm with £2bn contract builds trains that keep breaking down

Services between London and the Midlands will be slashed after problems reported with trains made by Hitachi

inews.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

Two units out on test tonight from Merchant Park, and a delivery path in system for Tuesday 21st.

 

[Steddenm]

Just seen this on X:



Not sure how correct it is though.

Image shows a tweet from "John_The_Fitter" which reads "Not only has EMR Class 810 train problems “spiralled out of control” regarding reliability but these trains don’t comply with the “crashworthiness “ standard EN 15227."

 

[800001]

Just seen this on X:

View attachment 208018Not sure how correct it is though.

Image shows a tweet from "John_The_Fitter" which reads "Not only has EMR Class 810 train problems “spiralled out of control” regarding reliability but these trains don’t comply with the “crashworthiness “ standard EN 15227."

You would of thought that unless they met the standards that ORR would not authorise them for traffic

 

[Teapot42]

Another comment seems to infer this is due to the way the Hitachi train derailed, including deflecting sideways potentially in to the path of an oncoming train.

I've only quickly scanned EN 15227, but this scenario doesn't seem to be mentioned. It's more about protection of occupants of the train involved in the collision, not preventing further collisions. There is a paragraph that mentions collisions following derailment, but says that's outside the scope of the standard.

As the standard also is based on collisions at 36kph it's a bit difficult to say that a collision at twice that can be used to assess compliance.

 

[LowLevel]

RMT Press Office:

RMT members working at East Midlands Railway (EMR) plan to take strike action on Saturday, August 1, and the following two Saturdays over growing safety concerns that the company has failed to address.

RMT has been in dispute with EMR since April following the roll out of the 810 fleet which has been operating with a significant number of faults.
Yet EMR has been sending trains into service that are likely to fail and require a full reset which leaves the train with no active safety systems including loss of communication between train drivers, dispatchers, and trackside which has occurred at least three times in the last week alone.
RMT general secretary Eddie Dempsey said that RMT reps at EMR had been extremely patient and tried to engage with management to no avail.
“The company has even put out safety notices with no involvement, consultation or negotiation with our reps who represent those most at risk.
“RMT is demanding that whilst these faults exist and until these trains are shown to be operating properly, they should be taken out of service,” he said.

ENDS

RMT strike action over safety at East Midlands Railway

RMT members working at East Midlands Railway (EMR) plan to take strike action on Saturday, August 1, and the following two Saturdays over growing safety concerns that the company has failed to address.

www.rmt.org.uk

Train Managers now taking strike action over the summer over class 810 defects.

There is also rather a long list of reoccurring defects on class 810s which as action short of a strike will see the train managers refuse to work on the unit, including things like door, air conditioning and toilet faults, amongst other things.

 

[BuhSnarf]

The 810's also featuring on the front page of the BBC this afternoon...

 

[InTheEastMids]

Not the biggest fan of Neil O'Brien MP but he's really got the bit between his teeth on this at the moment.

He wrote to DfT recently and got a reply from Hendy dated 13/07 which is visible on his Facebook page. There's the usual blather bit a couple of points I picked up on

Hendy says (my emphasis)

As a temporary measure, EMR has occasionally operated services with fewer carriages

This is misleading as EMR have been routinely short forming the very few 10-car services for months.

There is also a sentence about seat reservations that again is misleading because Hendy's team should not be unaware that EMR have not been offering reservations for some time.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

The Department for Transport finally wrote back to my letter about the crisis on the Midland Mainline. Despite me badgering them about this I just don't think their response is adequate to the situation. I am looking at ways to inject some urgency into solving this.

O'Brien has in turn replied today asking some more focused questions (can't quote directly as text is not copyable)
- whether any more 222 will leave the fleet before this is resolved (I think there is one unit that's already been stood down but had not left Etches Park)
- whether any other trains can be sourced to full the gap
- Penalties for Hitachi
- Compensation for passengers

Facebook

www.facebook.com

I have written to the Minister for Rail, Lord Hendy, about the unacceptable state of services on the Midland Mainline.
Passengers have been dealing with a reduced timetable, unreliable trains, delays, cancellations, and a lack of clear information about when things will improve.
I have asked the Minister to explain what is being done to fix the problems, and most importantly, when passengers can expect a reliable railway again.

 

[QSK19]

And the plot deepens. Rail Magazine seems to have published something 810-related within the last half hour. Apparently, the RMT is likely to strike over 810 safety concerns.

'Trains are likely to fail': RMT to strike over East Midlands Railway '810' safety concerns

Notice seen by RAIL says Class 810s lose essential safety systems for 20 minutes during resets which RMT has said happen on a regular basis.

www.railmagazine.com

Behind a paywall, so can’t see it; but yet another serious sign if true.

Union plans East Midlands Railway strikes over train safety concerns

RMT says it has been in dispute with the rail operator since April, following the rollout of the 810 fleet.

www.bbc.co.uk

A union that represents railway staff has announced plans for its members at East Midlands Railway (EMR) to take strike action over "growing safety concerns the company has failed to address".

The RMT union said it had been in dispute with EMR since April following the rollout of the 810 fleet (Aurora), which it said had been operating with a "significant number" of faults.

It said its members planned to take strike action on Saturday 1 August and the following two Saturdays.

An EMR spokesperson said any suggestion that the Hitachi Rail Class 810 fleet did not meet the required safety standards was "incorrect", and added it continued "to engage in discussions with RMT regarding this dispute".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

RMT strike action over safety at East Midlands Railway

RMT members working at East Midlands Railway (EMR) plan to take strike action on Saturday, August 1, and the following two Saturdays over growing safety concerns that the company has failed to address.

www.rmt.org.uk

Train Managers now taking strike action over the summer over class 810 defects.

There is also rather a long list of reoccurring defects on class 810s which as action short of a strike will see the train managers refuse to work on the unit, including things like door, air conditioning and toilet faults, amongst other things.

You understandably beat to me it. Clearly not breaking news within RF!

 

[liamf656]

Deleted as @QSK19 also beat me to it!

 

[GilfachFargoed]

The 810's also featuring on the front page of the BBC this afternoon...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz05rd7r475o

Good. Anything that turns up the heat on Hitachi Rail (Europe) and gets them to admit their failings and hopefully starts them delivering collaboratively is to be welcomed IMHO.

 

[DDB]

Just seen this on X:

View attachment 208018Not sure how correct it is though.

Image shows a tweet from "John_The_Fitter" which reads "Not only has EMR Class 810 train problems “spiralled out of control” regarding reliability but these trains don’t comply with the “crashworthiness “ standard EN 15227."

I would of thought non compliance with standards should be urgently reported to ORR not X. Therfore I'm not convinced by this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

Can anyone explain what on earth the RMT mean by

Yet EMR has been sending trains into service that are likely to fail and require a full reset which leaves the train with no active safety systems including loss of communication between train drivers, dispatchers, and trackside which has occurred at least three times in the last week alone.

Given this is a general press release presumably intended to be read by non specialist journalists why have they written it with such little explanation?

 

[800001]

I would of thought non compliance with standards should be urgently reported to ORR not X. Therfore I'm not convinced by this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

Can anyone explain what on earth the RMT mean by

Given this is a general press release presumably intended to be read by non specialist journalists why have they written or with such little explanation?

I presume, and this would be all 8X fleets, that when they do a reset of the train, it is basically an off and on process. It can take 5-10 minutes.
So when the train is shut down all doors will be locked.
No communication available fromthe train to signaller etc. once train is powered off, wait so long then start to turn the train back on and restart the systems.
however the train will still appear on the signalling system so signaller knows it's there.

This process would normally be done at a station and you would normally communicate to the station teams and on board crew that this process will happen.

 

[GilfachFargoed]

I presume, and this would be all 8X fleets, that when they do a reset of the train, it is basically an off and on process. It can take 5-10 minutes.
So when the train is shut down all doors will be locked.
No communication available fromthe train to signaller etc. once train is powered off, wait so long then start to turn the train back on and restart the systems.
however the train will still appear on the signalling system so signaller knows it's there.

This process would normally be done at a station and you would normally communicate to the station teams and on board crew that this process will happen.

So when the train is shut down all doors will be locked.

Presumably the emergency egress handles will still allow the doors to be released, were the stationary unit being reset be involved in some sort of incident?