Class 800 electrical interference issues on the Northern ECML

[corsaVXR]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #22 originally in Class 800 thread and posts #23 - #26 originally in the this thread.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

New BBC article on interference issues north of York on ECML

 

[Jonny]

What causes the interference and how is the s

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

New BBC article on interference issues north of York on ECML

So, what is needed to deal with the interference issues?

 

[eman_resu]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

New BBC article on interference issues north of York on ECML

IMHO I think Adonis's comments are all wrong.

The train manufacturer has had 10 years to make sure their train works with the signalling system adjacent to their factory!

Why on earth spend money on upgrading signalling that works perfectly well for existing trains........ You make the new train compatible with the existing systems surely.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I would take that article with a big pinch of salt - they claim the WCML was electrified 2 decades after the ECML...

 

[Oscar46016]

Can someone tell me at what point the IETs change to electric on the South Wales > Paddington Service?
Thanks

 

[Carntyne]

Testing is designed to find these issues and resolve them. Non-story.

 

[samuelmorris]

Testing is designed to find these issues and resolve them. Non-story.

I agree, the article is written as if it's 'yet another travesty to hit the UK rail industry' when in reality, assuming they can actually rectify it as I believe they've done on GWR, it's a potential warning of delayed start of AC operation by a few months at worst, nothing like the catastrophe being forecast.

 

[JN114]

Can someone tell me at what point the IETs change to electric on the South Wales > Paddington Service?
Thanks

Didcot Parkway if stopping, Didcot East junction if not.

 

[gingertom]

I agree, the article is written as if it's 'yet another travesty to hit the UK rail industry' when in reality, assuming they can actually rectify it as I believe they've done on GWR, it's a potential warning of delayed start of AC operation by a few months at worst, nothing like the catastrophe being forecast.

As Carntyne said, this is the purpose of testing, to find any issues and resolve them. As you say the issue was discovered and rectified on GWR. I would hope there has been liaison between EC and GWR signalling engineers and Hitachi to see if there are similarities in the problems to avoid reinventing the wheel from scratch.

 

[IanXC]

I agree, the article is written as if it's 'yet another travesty to hit the UK rail industry' when in reality, assuming they can actually rectify it as I believe they've done on GWR, it's a potential warning of delayed start of AC operation by a few months at worst, nothing like the catastrophe being forecast.

Exactly, it's not as if there aren't options to run them without going anywhere near York either! Such a complete non story!

 

[snowball]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

New BBC article on interference issues north of York on ECML

Was the lead item on BBC Look North (Leeds), and will be covered in "Inside Out" on rail in the north at 19:30 tonight in the northern regions (mentioned here).

 

[corsaVXR]

IMHO I think Adonis's comments are all wrong.

The train manufacturer has had 10 years to make sure their train works with the signalling system adjacent to their factory!

Why on earth spend money on upgrading signalling that works perfectly well for existing trains........ You make the new train compatible with the existing systems surely.

given that the trains meet the required EMC emittance criteria, then the EMC emittance criteria was incorrect. That's a design specification issue, not a manufacturer issue.

 

[TwistedMentat]

given that the trains meet the required EMC emittance criteria, then the EMC emittance criteria was incorrect. That's a design specification issue, not a manufacturer issue.

*ding ding ding*

You develop to the spec. If the spec is wrong that is the problem of the spec creator. Not the designer/builder.

Now if DfT are lucky the changes needed will be cheap, easy, and fast to do.

 

[The_Engineer]

given that the trains meet the required EMC emittance criteria, then the EMC emittance criteria was incorrect. That's a design specification issue, not a manufacturer issue.

In fact it is neither.....

EMC emittance and susceptibility limits for trains are laid down in Network Rail specifications, which are in turn invoked in new train contracts. Signalling susceptibility is similarly laid down in it's own specification, I think at higher level so that train emittance should be less than signalling susceptibility and avoid problems.

The problem is that Network Rail has inherited a lot of OLD signalling that predates NR specifications, so it's susceptibility is often not known and it's only when new train runs on these older signalled routes that problems are found. In tonight's programme on BBC1 North (Inside Out) there was a statement that said Hitachi and NR are working on the problem and that MODIFICATIONS TO SIGNALLING would be made to solve the problem (i.e. NOT the train!!).

 

[IanXC]

In tonight's programme on BBC1 North (Inside Out) there was a statement that said Hitachi and NR are working on the problem and that MODIFICATIONS TO SIGNALLING would be made to solve the problem (i.e. NOT the train!!).

I forget where I read it now, but it seems more that the ultimate liability hasn't yet been established, but that in the interests of running the railway, both Hitatchi and Network Rail are looking at whatever solutions can be found on either side, to deal with the problem using the best option available.

 

[The_Engineer]

I forget where I read it now, but it seems more that the ultimate liability hasn't yet been established, but that in the interests of running the railway, both Hitachi and Network Rail are looking at whatever solutions can be found on either side, to deal with the problem using the best option available.

Train emittance level has been measured early on, necessary to gain NR type clearance for the Class 800 to run at all. The GWR problem proved to be signalling IMMUNITY problems. Signalling equipment was modified. If it were the trains at fault, NR would insist on the trains being made compliant...….

The NR statement read out on the program tonight clearly said that the signalling equipment north of York will be modified..... I rest my case.

 

[IanXC]

Train emittance level has been measured early on, necessary to gain NR type clearance for the Class 800 to run at all. The GWR problem proved to be signalling IMMUNITY problems. Signalling equipment was modified. If it were the trains at fault, NR would insist on the trains being made compliant...….

The NR statement read out on the program tonight clearly said that the signalling equipment north of York will be modified..... I rest my case.

Lets have a quote shall we?

"Electromagnetic emissions from the train are interfering with existing safety critical systems - a fact confirmed by the independent report.

"It is Hitachi's responsibility to demonstrate that the IEP trains can run safely on the East Coast mainline, and we believe that this issue can only be fixed on the train. "

"There are a number of 30-year old signalling systems on the East Coast mainline which require modifying to operate with modern electric trains - which has been confirmed by an independent report.

"Network Rail is planning to carry out this modification work before the Azuma trains enter into passenger service. This is the same issue encountered 15 years ago when the Pendolino was introduced on the West Coast mainline.

"Whilst testing started over 12 months ago, this issue has been identified by Network Rail only recently during multi-train testing. Hitachi is working hard to support Network Rail to overcome this interface issue"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

Both sides appear to be pointing at each other from those quotes - but I think the salient point is that there is a view that the problem will be solved, one way or another.

 

[gsnedders]

Train emittance level has been measured early on, necessary to gain NR type clearance for the Class 800 to run at all. The GWR problem proved to be signalling IMMUNITY problems. Signalling equipment was modified. If it were the trains at fault, NR would insist on the trains being made compliant...….

The NR statement read out on the program tonight clearly said that the signalling equipment north of York will be modified..... I rest my case.

To be fair, Hitachi have far more interest than most train manufacturers in getting the trains in service ASAP, regardless of blame of issues: the fact they don't get a single penny till the trains enter service. The ECML sitting around doing nothing would mean more interest paid on all the financing.

 

[43096]

They (Hitachi and NR) have had years to get this right and haven’t done so. At its heart the IEP is a bog standard EMU with added diesels that will run on track with various signalling systems of varying ages. Interesting to note the issues on Great Western with IEP and the lack of issues with the equally new 387s, also bog standard EMUs. So, infrastructure or train?

 

[FGW_DID]

They (Hitachi and NR) have had years to get this right and haven’t done so. At its heart the IEP is a bog standard EMU with added diesels that will run on track with various signalling systems of varying ages. Interesting to note the issues on Great Western with IEP and the lack of issues with the equally new 387s, also bog standard EMUs. So, infrastructure or train?

It was the infrastructure (an axle counter at Cholsey)

 

[43096]

It was the infrastructure (an axle counter at Cholsey)

Interesting. Presumably the axles counter was defective, as it’s not old kit? It also begs the question, why were 387s not affected?

 

[FGW_DID]

I don't think it was the actual a/c head, it was more the cabling, not 100% on the actual ins & outs!

It was on the Down Main, the 387s are predominately on the reliefs and don't have as much of a 'signature' as the 800s

 

[DarloRich]

say BBC in the North East: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-45435683

New trains planned for the East Coast mainline do not work properly with track-side equipment, it has emerged.

The Azuma trains cause electromagnetic interference to older signals and points in the north of England.

This means the electro-diesel trains can only run on diesel, travelling much more slowly than their promised speed.

Network Rail said it was working with Japanese train manufacturer Hitachi to fix the problem but it was too early to identify a solution.

What is the actual story here? Is this anything beyond the ordinary when introducing a new class of trains onto the live ( and aged) railway?

 

[nlogax]

I'm assuming it's the same story as this;

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/signalling-interference-halts-azuma-tests-north-of-york

"RAIL understands that the trains intermittently interfere with a certain type of signalling, and that meetings have been held between Hitachi, NR and DfT regarding the possible impact on the planned launch in December, when Class 800/801s are due to be introduced on Leeds/Hull-London King’s Cross trains"

Seems to have taken a while to discover this problem but I guess intermittent issues are the hardest to pinpoint and fix.

 

[DarloRich]

thanks - the BBC article seemed a bit overblown

 

[Intermodal]

Sounds like an interesting fault. RFI/EMC is quite often very hard to pin down but certainly DC transformers and power supplies of any nature are a prolific cause of such. I feel sorry for whoever is fault finding that!

Again, the BBC has oversensationalised a minor problem and branded it as news.

 

[edwin_m]

To be fair, Hitachi have far more interest than most train manufacturers in getting the trains in service ASAP, regardless of blame of issues: the fact they don't get a single penny till the trains enter service. The ECML sitting around doing nothing would mean more interest paid on all the financing.

However, unless they are very stupid they will have insisted on a clause saying that if the delay is due to causes outside their control they will be reimbursed for their losses. This is why it's so important to determine who is responsible - if the signalling is to whatever spec Hitachi were given and told to comply with then Hitachi takes the loss, otherwise it will be down to DfT. Worst case the spec will be ambiguous and it will spin off into some immense techno-legal vortex.

This is a separate issue from actually fixing the problem, though it's in everyone's interests to fix it quickly because the bill that someone has to pay will be that much smaller. It's possible that the blame might lie with one party but the quickest fix might be to modify the other party's equipment.

 

[Clip]

They (Hitachi and NR) have had years to get this right and haven’t done so.

To be fair to them they really havent - You can design something and then build it but if its only when testing starts that issues are found then thats when they are found. And they started testing last year was it? And the issue has only been discovered now so not exactly 'years'

 

[Tio Terry]

EMC requirements in general are mandated by EU Directive 2014/30/EU.

For the railway industry in particular European Norms 50121, 50126 and 50128 are particularly important. I would be very surprised if any procurement documentation did not require compliance with these standards for any new trains. I do know that testing on the former GWR demonstrated that the 800's did not comply with these requirements, but I have no idea what was done about making them compatible.

It sounds very much like it is a problem for the train maker to resolve. Yes, the signalling systems can be modified to make them work with the trains - we know that from the GWR testing - but that's not the whole story. There are many other things that can be affected by EMC, heart pacemakers, the railways neighbours such as hospitals, televisions and computers, taxi firms radio systems, and many more things. It is important that the train is made to comply and that whilst the signalling can be made to work the greater risks are also negated.

 

[notlob.divad]

You develop to the spec. If the spec is wrong that is the problem of the spec creator. Not the designer/builder.

You don't work in my industry. In my industry, it really doesn't matter how wrong the specification is, it is always the manufacturer's / suppliers fault for not utilising their magic Crystal ball and predicting the last minute change in specification that the customer requires.