Class 800/1 testing update

[CardiffKid]

Hi,

Does anyone have any information/links to stories about how the testing of the new Class 800 trains is going?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Hi,

Does anyone have any information/links to stories about how the testing of the new Class 800 trains is going?

From what I have read, 800001 has reached 125 mph on the Old Dalby Test Track during trials back in May, it also undertook its first ECML test runs from Tallington during an overnight possession on the 12/13th May, being hauled there by a GB Railfreight 66.

 

[Blamethrower]

Like he said.

Latest Rail and Modern Railways magazines have some good shots of 2 units at old dalby and 800001 on the ECML

Lovely looking trains they are

 

[87electric]

I photographed it Saturday 13th June around 6am at Peterborough station.
The 66 was running round it to take back to Old Dalby after its testing.

 

[johnw]

Like he said.

Latest Rail and Modern Railways magazines have some good shots of 2 units at old dalby and 800001 on the ECML

Lovely looking trains they are

... Ruined by sliding doors.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

... Ruined by sliding doors.

So how are you meant to board them then.

 

[Blamethrower]

If they're owt like the 395s, the doors are pretty large, probably larger than a pendo say.

Clearly Hitachi don't have any aerodynamic issues with this so fair play to them

 

[Muzer]

So how are you meant to board them then.

Plug doors would be better, many people agree. Though Hitachi disagree, as they believe plug doors are less reliable.

 

[asylumxl]

Plug doors would be better, many people agree. Though Hitachi disagree, as they believe plug doors are less reliable.

And yet are beginning to offer them on other AT300 based trains after insisting they weren't reliable enough...

 

[Muzer]

I should have said "disagreed". I believe something has led them to change their mind about reliability, or they've given up and realised that demand for them is greater with plug doors

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are plug doors easier to maintain then sliding? Access to the mechanism must be easier for engineers with plug doors

 

[AM9]

Plug doors are usually much slower operating than sliding. Aesthetically, sliding doors may be less appealing to some as they break the line of the coaches but they seem to work fine on 395s so far.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhfG3UkIiUU

About 0:50 the plugs on the Networks don't seem any slower then sliding doors

About 5:06

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZjjrAPAnjc

I wouldn't call that real slow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UvtXflIgUU

That's not too much difference in speed

From what I've seen there isn't much difference in the speed of operation of the 395 doors (no luck so far in finding a clear video showing the doors in operation)

 

[itsjamierawr]

If they're like the 395 doors then they'll be just as slow as the ones on a Pendolino (they have the step that has to fold out)... After pushing the button when released they take time due to a second lock I think so often you see people push the button and nothing happens for 5-6 seconds until they open (though the actual opening is quick). However, in my frequent use of 395s they seem pretty well sealed!

 

[asylumxl]

If they're like the 395 doors then they'll be just as slow as the ones on a Pendolino (they have the step that has to fold out)... After pushing the button when released they take time due to a second lock I think so often you see people push the button and nothing happens for 5-6 seconds until they open (though the actual opening is quick). However, in my frequent use of 395s they seem pretty well sealed!

I believe on the 395, the diaphragm that seals the door deflates first and then the doors open.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I believe on the 395, the diaphragm that seals the door deflates first and then the doors open.

Is that diaphragm requirement on all stock that is rated to go above a certain speed?

 

[Stompehh]

I believe on the 395, the diaphragm that seals the door deflates first and then the doors open.

From the IEP specification, under the section relating to station dwell times:
The design of the IEP Trains must include measures that allow the external passenger doors to be prepared for opening prior to the IEP Train stopping at a platform.

I think this is a reference to the seal problem. I believe I read somewhere that they will deflate below a certain speed in preparation for stopping, but I can't seem to find the source anywhere.

 

[al.currie93]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhfG3UkIiUU

About 0:50 the plugs on the Networks don't seem any slower then sliding doors

About 5:06

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZjjrAPAnjc

I wouldn't call that real slow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UvtXflIgUU

That's not too much difference in speed

From what I've seen there isn't much difference in the speed of operation of the 395 doors (no luck so far in finding a clear video showing the doors in operation)

I agree. I catch 165s and 166s regularly and those doors open faster than those of 455s in my opinion! Wouldn't really want to get in the way ofone however :P

 

[AM9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhfG3UkIiUU

About 0:50 the plugs on the Networks don't seem any slower then sliding doors

About 5:06

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZjjrAPAnjc

I wouldn't call that real slow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UvtXflIgUU

That's not too much difference in speed

From what I've seen there isn't much difference in the speed of operation of the 395 doors (no luck so far in finding a clear video showing the doors in operation)

Not a realistic comparison, a 35+ year old MKIII design 455 sliding door with a 20 year old 465/6 and a 10 year old 450 examples of plug doors. Cureent designs like Electrostars are pretty slow wheras it is reported that the 700 doors have been slowed down as they were too fast!

 

[al.currie93]

Plug doors are usually much slower operating than sliding. Aesthetically, sliding doors may be less appealing to some as they break the line of the coaches but they seem to work fine on 395s so far.

Not a realistic comparison, a 35+ year old MKIII design 455 sliding door with a 20 year old 465/6 and a 10 year old 450 examples of plug doors. Cureent designs like Electrostars are pretty slow wheras it is reported that the 700 doors have been slowed down as they were too fast!

Granted, plug doors on newer trains seem significantly slower, which I do actually think is a significant design flaw. But your first post suggested that all plug doors (regardless of age) are generally slower than sliding doors - which SpacePhoenix has suggested and shown isn't the case. Therefore it seems logical that a plug door could be made for the 800/801 that is just as quick at opening.

 

[theageofthetra]

Plug doors are undesirable as the whole unit goes out of gauge if just one leaf of one door fails to close- with attendant rules which cause a great deal of disruption to traffic to get the unit to a maintenance facility.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Plug doors are undesirable as the whole unit goes out of gauge if just one leaf of one door fails to close- with attendant rules which cause a great deal of disruption to traffic to get the unit to a maintenance facility.

Are there many routes where a plug door that fails to close would actually physically foul something?

 

[A-driver]

Are there many routes where a plug door that fails to close would actually physically foul something?

Well all routes technically. Clearance is done on all doors closed. Any plug foot which any be closed is limited to doing 5mph past obstructions like platforms, bridges, other trains etc (which also must be stopped whilst being passed).

 

[najaB]

Are there many routes where a plug door that fails to close would actually physically foul something?

Don't know. That's the problem. As A-driver said, they don't prove gauge with the doors open.

 

[AM9]

Granted, plug doors on newer trains seem significantly slower, which I do actually think is a significant design flaw. But your first post suggested that all plug doors (regardless of age) are generally slower than sliding doors - which SpacePhoenix has suggested and shown isn't the case. Therefore it seems logical that a plug door could be made for the 800/801 that is just as quick at opening.

Compare plug and sliding doors on trains of the same era.

Given the far more serious operational problems of a failed plug door, is it worth faffing around with a potentially troublesome design on a busy line just to give the exterior of the train a smoother outline. Sounds like another enthusiast's wish that isn't worth the bother it may cause. If it's good enough for Shinkansen trains, where Hitachi have obviously fixed the pressure wave and draught problem, why make railway operation more expensive?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When a plug door fails, how often is it that the door can't be manually shut then locked out of use?

 

[Bayum]

To get the thread back on track; are there any videos or is there any information on when we're likely to see testing of the 800 under its own steam? I'm aware it's going on on the ECML as we speak, but I'm not driving to Grantham or wherever just for that!

 

[transmanche]

From the IEP specification, under the section relating to station dwell times:
The design of the IEP Trains must include measures that allow the external passenger doors to be prepared for opening prior to the IEP Train stopping at a platform.

I think this is a reference to the seal problem. I believe I read somewhere that they will deflate below a certain speed in preparation for stopping, but I can't seem to find the source anywhere.

TBH, I had assumed it referred to something else: that a passenger could press a 'door open' button prior to the doors being released by the driver/guard, so that the doors would open automatically as soon as they were released by the driver/guard. Something that's very handy when carrying luggage/children.

I know many trams do this, but I'm not sure if this system used on trains in the UK.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On Croydon trams your supposed to press the door open button to request the next stop. That is according to the signs BUT I have never seen all the doors NOT open automatically at every tram stop (and the tram stop !).

 

[Emblematic]

TBH, I had assumed it referred to something else: that a passenger could press a 'door open' button prior to the doors being released by the driver/guard, so that the doors would open automatically as soon as they were released by the driver/guard. Something that's very handy when carrying luggage/children.

I know many trams do this, but I'm not sure if this system used on trains in the UK.

I can only speak with certainty about the Capitalstars, my recollection is that other units vary, but for the 378s the exact opposite is true - you must depress the button after the sounder and lights have activated to open the door. If you have pressed it before then, and even if you keep it depressed, nothing happens, you have to release and re-press for the doors to open. I guess the intention is to stop the door opening unexpectedly if someone has been leaning on the controls, but it's not entirely convenient.

My reading of the spec tallies with Stompehh - seals depressurised at low speed to allow rapid unlock & open when stationary.