Class 710 LO

[HLE]

2020 at this rate. Basically whenever driver training starts that’s when the countdown will begin.

 

[gc1982]

I am not an expert in this area, but shouldn't they have just had the same software as the 345's? They could have put the new software in one 710 only and tested it to death so that it was ready for the 720's. I dont think as a rule, they should put untested software into production units. Having a test only unit they can test new software in moving forward is probably not a bad idea..and the cost would surely be less than the compensation bill! I'm sure there are a million reasons why it isn't possible though lol

 

[Bikeman78]

Indeed. They very much dislike 317s to my understanding so a 315 is thrown out as much as possible where possible.

What do they dislike? Wouldn't have thought it makes much difference at 30 mph. Another reason why the Upminster shuttle is often a 315 is because, with 315813 out of traffic, there are only 16 units for 16 diagrams. The 317s require 11 from 14 so they usually cover a pair of 315 diagrams with 317s.

 

[samuelmorris]

I am not an expert in this area, but shouldn't they have just had the same software as the 345's? They could have put the new software in one 710 only and tested it to death so that it was ready for the 720's. I dont think as a rule, they should put untested software into production units. Having a test only unit they can test new software in moving forward is probably not a bad idea..and the cost would surely be less than the compensation bill! I'm sure there are a million reasons why it isn't possible though lol

Well, they're not really production units until they're in service. You either test with test units or you test with the actual units. It doesn't make much difference in practice, the 710s being different units they'd need at least some differences in the software.

Don't forget the software on 345s I believe has also been very problematic.

 

[700007]

What do they dislike? Wouldn't have thought it makes much difference at 30 mph. Another reason why the Upminster shuttle is often a 315 is because, with 315813 out of traffic, there are only 16 units for 16 diagrams. The 317s require 11 from 14 so they usually cover a pair of 315 diagrams with 317s.

They're unreliable units that are riddled s with a lot of mechanical issues according to the grape vine. Whether small things from the cab heating failing consistently to the windscreen wipers not working properly to the doors not closing, just eventually leaves a sour taste in their mouths.

I do like the 317s as a passenger for the most of it but I can understand their reasoning.

 

[greatkingrat]

Andrew Dismore AM has posted a letter from TfL on his website which gives the current "official" status.

I’m writing to update you on our plans to provide new electric trains on the Gospel Oak to Barking line, and to advise of some forthcoming short-term changes to the weekend service.

As I am sure you know, we are investing over £300m in 54 new, state-of-the-art, British-built, electric London Overground trains. These trains will help boost capacity on some of the busiest and, at times, most overcrowded lines, starting with the Gospel Oak to Barking line.

We had expected the new trains to be here long before now, and we are sorry for the continuing delay. This has been due to the manufacturer, Bombardier Transportation, which has needed to undertake further software development to ensure the new high-tech trains deliver the reliable service customers have been patiently waiting for.

Bombardier has told us that, subject to further successful software development, the new trains should begin entering passenger service in the second half of December. We share your frustration at these continuing delays and, together with the Mayor, are fully focused on ensuring Bombardier deliver the trains as quickly as possible.

Testing of the new trains is well underway. Some trains have already accumulated in excess of 1,000 miles, helping Bombardier iron out problems before they enter passenger service. The software has now been developed to the point where we have been able to begin driver training. We need to train nearly 170 drivers to be able to run a full complement of new trains, and are working closely with the London Overground’s operator, Arriva Rail London, to introduce the new trains as quickly as possible.

I would also like to update you on some planned short-term changes to the weekend service. You may be aware that, to accommodate the delay to the new trains, we negotiated an extension to the lease of the diesel trains, which currently run on the line. These trains were due to be overhauled some time ago and are becoming increasingly unreliable. Furthermore, one of these trains, which was being used as a spare in case of maintenance issues, has had to be released to be overhauled before being redeployed elsewhere in the country.

Therefore, to allow train maintenance work to increase the likelihood of a reliable weekday service, trains will run less frequently at weekends until the new trains begin to be introduced. We will confirm the details of these changes in the next few days and I will of course share these with you. We are very sorry for the inconvenience this will cause and continue to work closely with Arriva Rail London and our train maintenance contractor to minimise disruption. We will keep customers informed, including through information at stations and on social media, and we advise people to check before they travel.
We will, of course, also continue to run the supplementary bus services which have been providing additional capacity from Leyton Midland Road and Leytonstone High Road on weekday mornings.”

 

[petersi]

Andrew Dismore AM has posted a letter from TfL on his website which gives the current "official" status.

To cover driving 8 trains 170 drivers?
No wonder Rail is so expensive my guess would have been between 80 and 100.

 

[swt_passenger]

To cover driving 8 trains 170 drivers?
No wonder Rail is so expensive my guess would have been between 80 and 100.

The drivers won’t just cover the Goblin. They probably cover all Willesden based diagrams, so all of them will need training. Whether you could have just enough to start and then build up to everyone else over a few weeks is a different question.

 

[hwl]

To cover driving 8 trains 170 drivers?
No wonder Rail is so expensive my guess would have been between 80 and 100.

And the Watford DCs they are grouped with...

 

[700007]

Very optimistic to say mid December!!

 

[Class 466]

Another 172 has now left ARL leaving them with 6 units to cover 6 diagrams - one circuit is caped currently along there - users can probably expect a lot more of this now!

 

[samuelmorris]

Can anyone verify Dismore's statement that driver training is actually now underway?

 

[greatkingrat]

A group of instructors are going up to the Old Dalby test track this week. I believe this will be the first time any ARL staff have actually driven a 710. So it is sort of the start of driver training, although this may well throw up new issues and I don't expect the main driver training to start before the new year.

 

[DelW]

To cover driving 8 trains 170 drivers?
No wonder Rail is so expensive my guess would have been between 80 and 100.

Higher up, the same statement refers to
"... As I am sure you know, we are investing over £300m in 54 new, state-of-the-art, British-built, electric London Overground trains ..." (my bold)
So allowing for units on maintenance, about 3.5 drivers per unit, which sounds not unreasonable to cover shifts, holidays, etc.

 

[HLE]

So the 172’s are knackered and need a decent overhaul mechanically. Can’t wait for them to be sent up here!

Tyseley better order some more tape in

 

[plcd1]

A group of instructors are going up to the Old Dalby test track this week. I believe this will be the first time any ARL staff have actually driven a 710. So it is sort of the start of driver training, although this may well throw up new issues and I don't expect the main driver training to start before the new year.

However if we are being pedantic, and why not, the statement from TfL is not actually correct at the time they wrote it. Driver training has not started. It should start at some point this week as you say but not as of Monday 12th Nov. Furthermore I think the statement about the units (plural) having run x thousand miles is a bit of a smoke screen. Of course units have been tested but not a single one has been handed over to Arriva. Only one (AFAIK) has run on NR metals as opposed to test tracks. So what if trains have been tested - it's an irrelevance to the public. The indicative service start date of late December is entirely dependent on there being no more software related delays as TfL have stated. That's a huge qualification and there is nothing from anyone about how confident Bombardier are about the trains achieving sufficient software maturity to enable reliable passenger service. Therefore I'll just sit here being sceptical until I see loads of class 710s running up and down NR metals to achieve their fault free mileage and Bombardier being publicly seen to hand the trains over to Arriva. Then I might begin to believe something of substance has been achieved. Meanwhile the service continues to crumble.

 

[slick]

Something appeared suggesting its not far off at all for the introduction

 

[Wolfie]

They're unreliable units that are riddled s with a lot of mechanical issues according to the grape vine. Whether small things from the cab heating failing consistently to the windscreen wipers not working properly to the doors not closing, just eventually leaves a sour taste in their mouths.

I do like the 317s as a passenger for the most of it but I can understand their reasoning.

And presumably TfL ended up with the worst units..

 

[HLE]

Thanks for that slick. Let’s hope for the goblin route passengers that the 710’s do enter regular service in the early part of 2019 as more drivers are passed out on them.

As for the 172’s and their overhauls, if 172002 is anything to go by, we’ll still have the bloody dogboxes in service up here until 2020!

 

[Bikeman78]

And presumably TfL ended up with the worst units..

The 317/7 were out of service for a year so they were probably a bit knackered. 317887-892 are probably no better or worse than the other 317s.

 

[samuelmorris]

They were very problematic when first reintroduced as I recall TfL having to put out a public apology about the condition of them.

 

[BlyRF]

This appeared at the depot today.

Second half of December sounds very opimisitc to me...

More likely Second half of January for the starting of 710s but man what a real mess this has become. Just pray they get these things in service ASAP.

 

[leytongabriel]

Second half of December sounds very opimisitc to me...

More likely Second half of January for the starting of 710s but man what a real mess this has become. Just pray they get these things in service ASAP.

Yes. Local talk seems to be February now with a bus service from some time in December.

 

[slick]

Caught up with a bombardier fitter today at Liverpool Street working on one of the 345s.....still teething problems hopefully sorted soon

 

[332 > 444]

The fact they are down to six class 172 units means it's critical times for TfL and all other TOCs that have an Aventra order should be worried. I have a friend at WJ and she's not even touched one! I had not much problems with the 387 but I have a feeling our 717s will be less problematic than the 710s. I would like there to be some sort of solution as the GOBLIN is my commute to my depot!

Not all Siemens units are great, 332s are manure.....

 

[samuelmorris]

The fact they are down to six class 172 units means it's critical times for TfL and all other TOCs that have an Aventra order should be worried. I have a friend at WJ and she's not even touched one! I had not much problems with the 387 but I have a feeling our 717s will be less problematic than the 710s. I would like there to be some sort of solution as the GOBLIN is my commute to my depot!

Not all Siemens units are great, 332s are manure.....

Despite your signature? Says a lot about 444s then! (Which is odd, as I like them but that's off-topic).

I suspect you may be right, there isn't a whole lot different between the 700 and 717 and the 700s are finally starting to bed in now, whereas the 710 seems to be ground-up new from a software perspective and the software wasn't remotely ready when the trains were manufactured.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

I hope that TfL are able to extract a good penalty out of Bombardier for their absolute catastrophic failure to deliver these trains. However I fear that the relevant contracts will not give such provision and TfL are basically left to pick up the pieces until Bombardier deliver - it always seems to be the case in private-public delivery (I've no hard evidence for this; just the usual headline news stories).
Bombardier clearly shouldn't have marketed these trains - I hope they're not able to get away with it or we'll live in a future soon where you're gambling when you sign a contract for trains that they ever turn up.

 

[samuelmorris]

The worrying thing is, the Aventra is just about the most popular post-privatisation unit the UK has ever seen. Will the issues experienced here similarly affect the 720s, 701s, 730s and 711s? Never mind the delay simply from the 710s not being finished, if there are similar computer issues (and 345s seemed to carry a software guy onboard every service for about a year odd before they got those right) with all the other classes, some of these fleets could also be 2+ years behind schedule.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

The worrying thing is, the Aventra is just about the most popular post-privatisation unit the UK has ever seen. Will the issues experienced here similarly affect the 720s, 701s, 730s and 711s? Never mind the delay simply from the 710s not being finished, if there are similar computer issues (and 345s seemed to carry a software guy onboard every service for about a year odd before they got those right) with all the other classes, some of these fleets could also be 2+ years behind schedule.

Isn't part of its popularity that it's cheaper than the Desiro City? I think we've figured out why.

 

[700007]

Isn't part of its popularity that it's cheaper than the Desiro City? I think we've figured out why.

Exactly that - other trains were considerably more expensive, I am imagining the fact that they were built overseas may have added to the costs (tariffs, transportation etc.)