Class 710 LO

[Peter Sarf]

Personal view is that the rail safety Taliban need there terms of reference rewriting to take into account the higher risk to passengers who move to other form of transport due to there actions.
To take things to extremes im sure armoured trains would be very safe but the public would take to there cars and be less safe.
K

A death on the railways is viewed as far more unacceptable and tragic than a road death. There are far more road deaths so perhaps deaths on roads are somehow seen as more acceptable. We do not often see calls for foot bridges over roads. Is there money spent on rail safety that could save more lives if spent on road safety ?. Sorry off topic.

As for the 710s are the 4-car 710s currently being tested destined to stay on Gospel Oak - Barking ?. I used to think there were only 6 x 5-car 710s and that they will be dual voltage as they are meant to supplement the 378s on the West London Line - is that correct ?. Also some info I have suggests there are now to be 14 x 5-car 710s. I cannot recall if some of the 4-car 710s are to take over Watford - Euston ?.

 

[samuelmorris]

The wikipedia article for the fleet suggests 7 for Watford and 6 extras for the ELL. No idea where that's sourced from though.

 

[87015]

Are you able to say what has happened then? In the absence of any commentary, guesswork and speculation is all that is left. Given the huge delays to these trains it is no wonder people are, perhaps, a tad fed up.

They haven’t started mileage accumulation as I read so it can’t have been suddenly stopped - it’s the “expert” guesswork that gets on the goat. Same people that bleat 172002 is at TS when you can see it (now) passing Ilford!

Actual testing stages trundling along AFAIK.

 

[theking]

A death on the railways is viewed as far more unacceptable and tragic than a road death. There are far more road deaths so perhaps deaths on roads are somehow seen as more acceptable. We do not often see calls for foot bridges over roads. Is there money spent on rail safety that could save more lives if spent on road safety ?. Sorry off topic.

As for the 710s are the 4-car 710s currently being tested destined to stay on Gospel Oak - Barking ?. I used to think there were only 6 x 5-car 710s and that they will be dual voltage as they are meant to supplement the 378s on the West London Line - is that correct ?. Also some info I have suggests there are now to be 14 x 5-car 710s. I cannot recall if some of the 4-car 710s are to take over Watford - Euston ?.

4 car for the goblin and dc.

6, 5 car units for wll extras & to cascade 378 to ell.

Tfl took up the option to purchase the 6 five car before the leasing costs went up. It's in a tfl board paper somewhere

 

[Peter Sarf]

4 car for the goblin and dc.

6, 5 car units for wll extras & to cascade 378 to ell.

Tfl took up the option to purchase the 6 five car before the leasing costs went up. It's in a tfl board paper somewhere

Ah thanks that sort of matches my memory.

So there will be 378s freed up from Watford-Euston. I remember it being said that the 5 car 378s were bigger than necessary so that replacing with 4-car 710s frees up about 4 378s. Then a few more 378s from the WLL by using 5-car 710s.

 

[samuelmorris]

Is it not just fleet availability in the case of the WLL/ELL? I didn't realise any extra frequency increases were planned.

 

[theking]

From the tfl board paper.


An option for nine additional trains would be exercised (six 5-
car units and three 4-car units making 42 vehicles in total) to enable delivery
of the ELL 20 tph and BRE services. One additional Class 315 train would be
retained within the broader rolling stock fleet under this option to enable the
provision of the planned service level. The steps required to deliver the
enhanced services on the BRE and the ELL under this option are described
below:
(i) the six additional 5-car units ordered would be used to deliver the
NLL/WLL service, releasing six 5-car Class 378 units to deliver the
enhanced service level of 20 tph on the ELL;
(ii) one of the additional 4-car units ordered would be used to deliver the
Watford to Euston service. Another 4-car unit would be released for use on
the same service by leasing an additional unit to run the Romford to
Upminster service. A further two 5-car Class 378 units could then be
released to deliver the enhanced service level of 20 tph on the ELL;
(iii) eight additional 5-car Class 378 units would therefore be released to the
ELL, enabling the 20 tph service enhancement to be operated. This
enhancement has to be run using Class 378 units due to the operational
and safety constraints imposed by operation through the ELL Core; and
(iv)the remaining two additional 4-car units would be used to deliver the BRE
service. The unit availability required under this option would be
underpinned by the withdrawal of the additional peak service on the
Gospel Oak to Barking route that is referred to above.
During the period prior to the introduction of the enhanced service on the ELL
and the BRE the trains could be used on the WLL and potentially elsewhere
on the network to help defray any sunk leasing or maintenance costs.

 

[HLE]

They haven’t started mileage accumulation as I read so it can’t have been suddenly stopped - it’s the “expert” guesswork that gets on the goat. Same people that bleat 172002 is at TS when you can see it (now) passing Ilford!

Actual testing stages trundling along AFAIK.

The people that ‘bleat’ 002 is at Tyseley were only going off what was reported in the press. And other sources.

Anyhow, I’m now bleating about the ‘fact’ that this unit has been parked up at Ilford for the last few months.

 

[samuelmorris]

From the tfl board paper.


An option for nine additional trains would be exercised (six 5-
car units and three 4-car units making 42 vehicles in total) to enable delivery
of the ELL 20 tph and BRE services. One additional Class 315 train would be
retained within the broader rolling stock fleet under this option to enable the
provision of the planned service level. The steps required to deliver the
enhanced services on the BRE and the ELL under this option are described
below:
(i) the six additional 5-car units ordered would be used to deliver the
NLL/WLL service, releasing six 5-car Class 378 units to deliver the
enhanced service level of 20 tph on the ELL;
(ii) one of the additional 4-car units ordered would be used to deliver the
Watford to Euston service. Another 4-car unit would be released for use on
the same service by leasing an additional unit to run the Romford to
Upminster service. A further two 5-car Class 378 units could then be
released to deliver the enhanced service level of 20 tph on the ELL;
(iii) eight additional 5-car Class 378 units would therefore be released to the
ELL, enabling the 20 tph service enhancement to be operated. This
enhancement has to be run using Class 378 units due to the operational
and safety constraints imposed by operation through the ELL Core; and
(iv)the remaining two additional 4-car units would be used to deliver the BRE
service. The unit availability required under this option would be
underpinned by the withdrawal of the additional peak service on the
Gospel Oak to Barking route that is referred to above.
During the period prior to the introduction of the enhanced service on the ELL
and the BRE the trains could be used on the WLL and potentially elsewhere
on the network to help defray any sunk leasing or maintenance costs.

I still don't really understand where the 315 fits in based on the above. I assumed it was for the Emerson Park branch but the second half of that suggests otherwise. Still not convinced, as novel as it is, that keeping just one unit of the class in service is a very good idea long-term.

 

[rebmcr]

For reference, BRE is "Barking Riverside Extension".

 

[Mordac]

I still don't really understand where the 315 fits in based on the above. I assumed it was for the Emerson Park branch but the second half of that suggests otherwise. Still not convinced, as novel as it is, that keeping just one unit of the class in service is a very good idea long-term.

It is a completely bonkers idea, and I hope some sense prevails and this doesn't go ahead.

 

[swt_passenger]

I still don't really understand where the 315 fits in based on the above. I assumed it was for the Emerson Park branch but the second half of that suggests otherwise. Still not convinced, as novel as it is, that keeping just one unit of the class in service is a very good idea long-term.

They need to add 2 x 4 car units to the DC for the 4 tph service. One comes from the new build, one from the originally ordered fleet’s allocation for Rominster (replaced by a 315.)
Also 2 new build added for Barking Riverside.
Total of three new build 4 car required.

 

[gc1982]

How long do they plan to keep a 315 on the Romford-Upminster line? Will it eventually go over to a 710 or is the long term plan a 315?

 

[swt_passenger]

How long do they plan to keep a 315 on the Romford-Upminster line? Will it eventually go over to a 710 or is the long term plan a 315?

The TfL board paper that is regularly quoted from says nothing about the single 315 having an end date.

 

[Kite159]

Is it really too much for TfL to have ECS moves to/from Romford using a 710 from the depot at Willesden, at least they don't need to keep knowledge & parts for a single 315?

Similar to how London Northwestern operate the St Albans Abbey shuttle, switching the unit over weekly.

 

[Domh245]

I think that was the plan initially, but when they upped the order for the 710s, keeping a 315 to run the shuttle was decided on to allow more units to be put to use on other services.

 

[samuelmorris]

Is it really too much for TfL to have ECS moves to/from Romford using a 710 from the depot at Willesden, at least they don't need to keep knowledge & parts for a single 315?

Similar to how London Northwestern operate the St Albans Abbey shuttle, switching the unit over weekly.

Wouldn't they just be using a 710 based at Ilford? Why would it need to come from Willesden?

 

[700007]

According to the 'Riding the Goblin' passenger users group, they claim that 172006 has gone off lease. This leaves only 6 172s to work 6 diagrams with no maintenance spares instead of the usual 8.

This train service really is on the brink of becoming a bus service after the New Year....

Is an interim timetable being planned with reduced frequencies? Anyone know when the next 172 is off?

 

[TFN]

According to the 'Riding the Goblin' passenger users group, they claim that 172006 has gone off lease. This leaves only 6 172s to work 6 diagrams with no maintenance spares instead of the usual 8.

Is that why LO has minor delays on Goblin due to shortage of trains?

It's begun...

 

[greatkingrat]

There are only 5 in operation today, with one diagram cancelled.

 

[700007]

Is that why LO has minor delays on Goblin due to shortage of trains?

It's begun...

Indeed.

There are only 5 in operation today, with one diagram cancelled.

That's even worse now...

 

[HLE]

Hopefully WMT have put their foot down, those things were meant to be in service up here in December. At this rate it’ll be the middle of next year before that happens.

Got to feel for the goblin passengers though.

Let’s hope they move the two units up this way now and get the crew training underway

 

[samuelmorris]

Half and half is a bit daft, if they're going to take any units they may as well return the line to bus service again as it's been for so much of the last couple of years and at least only disrupt LO not WMT as well.

 

[Bikeman78]

This is what was left of a Stadler GTW (built 2010-2012) after hitting a lorry on a level crossing:

The train driver died.

Similar crashes with FLIRT3 trains showed way less damage, because the FLIRT3 meets the tighter crash regulations while the GTW does not.

I was surprised how badly damaged this cab was. The problem is, if you hit a carriage hard anough, something has to give. In the Bettembourg crash the leading section of the double decker carriage appears to have been bulldozed through the rest of the carriage by the oncoming loco. Had this been a busy train, the death toll would have been horrendous.

https://luxtimes.lu/archives/3228-why-was-stop-signal-missed-in-train-crash

 

[iphone76]

Is it really too much for TfL to have ECS moves to/from Romford using a 710 from the depot at Willesden, at least they don't need to keep knowledge & parts for a single 315?

Similar to how London Northwestern operate the St Albans Abbey shuttle, switching the unit over weekly.

I think the only issue with this is that the Romford to Upminster shuttle is staffed using drivers from MTR based at Ilford. So you'd either have to pass the operation back to Arriva Rail London, or train up the current drivers for a 710 plus the route from Ilford to Willesden.

 

[700007]

I think the only issue with this is that the Romford to Upminster shuttle is staffed using drivers from MTR based at Ilford. So you'd either have to pass the operation back to Arriva Rail London, or train up the current drivers for a 710 plus the route from Ilford to Willesden.

Indeed. They very much dislike 317s to my understanding so a 315 is thrown out as much as possible where possible.

 

[Kite159]

Wouldn't they just be using a 710 based at Ilford? Why would it need to come from Willesden?

Because I forgot where the West Anglia ones were going to be based

 

[Chiltern006]

When are these going to be in service

 

[TRAX]

I suppose you could have a good read of this thread...

 

[samuelmorris]

Indeed, based on current reports it sounds like it'll be early Spring, March/April time to me