Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

[pompeyfan]

My understanding was ASLEF didn’t like the 701s and would kick the can along the roads as much as possible (including rejecting the armrests for being 2 inch’s too narrow) but would eventually tolerate them

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My understanding was ASLEF didn’t like the 701s and would kick the can along the roads as much as possible (including rejecting the armrests for being 2 inch’s too narrow) but would eventually tolerate them

So we have for the first time a standard train type in the Aventra yet SWR has gone for a new cab design?

 

[Bigfoot]

I have it from a good source that there is much worry over the new cab size within bombardier and swr. We wait and see what happens. Those extra 4 seats behind the cab now seem to be causing a lot of headaches...

 

[DorkingMain]

Is this 707 or 701's?

The latter section is about 701s.

700s / 707s have excellent cab design, probably the most pleasant I've seen on short-medium distance stock.

 

[pompeyfan]

I have it from a good source that there is much worry over the new cab size within bombardier and swr. We wait and see what happens. Those extra 4 seats behind the cab now seem to be causing a lot of headaches...

they haven’t actually used the dead space though. If you look behind a driving cab there’s still only 4 seats like there is on every single other fleet.

 

[Goldfish62]

I have it from a good source that there is much worry over the new cab size within bombardier and swr. We wait and see what happens. Those extra 4 seats behind the cab now seem to be causing a lot of headaches...

There aren't any extra seats. The passenger saloon space between the cab and the first doors is the same as on the 710s. The much more credible explanation is that the shorted cab allows the doors on a 2x5 car train to stop in exactly the same locations as for a 10 car unit.

Anyway, back to 707s....

 

[DorkingMain]

There aren't any extra seats. The passenger saloon space between the cab and the first doors is the same as on the 710s. The much more credible explanation is that the shorted cab allows the doors on a 2x5 car train to stop in exactly the same locations as for a 10 car unit.

Anyway, back to 707s....

Without wishing to totally derail this thread, the unit ASLEF looked at was a 10 car fixed length.

Going back to the 707 transfer to Southeastern - I'm wondering what the long term plan will be for Southeastern. Most metro area platforms (aside a couple on the Greenwich line, and the Nunhead - Denmark Hill section) are 12 cars long. It would entirely make sense to run a 12 car service where possible, using ASDO on the few platforms where it isn't possible.

Possible that the 376s and 707s further down the line might get a 6th coach fitted?

 

[Chiltern006]

It would be most logical if the 707s were based out of a london terminus, e.g. Victoria as Slade green and orpington drivers sign 700s (I believe) and would be quite good to have a dedicated metro fleet for a set of routes out of a london terminus. just an idea

 

[43066]

hopefully they wont need much training as the drivers based at Orpington/ Slade Green sign 700s too and I believe the cab/ driving controls are similar

It was only some Orpington drivers who signed 700s, and the ones that did haven’t for quite a while now. A full traction course will still be needed.

 

[Mikey C]

We still know very little. Where will they be stored and indeed which stock if any will be displaced

Indeed SE is a bit of a mess in terms of train lengths as you mainly have a 12 car railway out of CX and CST, but one where some of the CX platforms aren't long enough

 

[DorkingMain]

It was only some Orpington drivers who signed 700s, and the ones that did haven’t for quite a while now. A full traction course will still be needed.

700s are totally different to 707s anyway. They have different software and quirks etc

 

[James James]

Without wishing to totally derail this thread, the unit ASLEF looked at was a 10 car fixed length.

Hard to see why that's relevant - putting different cabs on the 10-car units just because they don't need to operate in multiple would be a bit expensive?

 

[urpert]

It would be most logical if the 707s were based out of a london terminus, e.g. Victoria as Slade green and orpington drivers sign 700s (I believe) and would be quite good to have a dedicated metro fleet for a set of routes out of a london terminus. just an idea

Pretty sure 10 coaches won’t fit into Brixton (amongst other stations on the Victoria metro routes)

 

[brad465]

Pretty sure 10 coaches won’t fit into Brixton (amongst other stations on the Victoria metro routes)

Yes many stations on between Victoria and Bromley South either via Catford or Herne Hill are 8 car only. Brixton has the added challenge that a train longer than 8 cars stopping at the down platform also obstructs the junction behind it, so SDO alone doesn't solve it.

 

[ijmad]

I'd love to see them on the Southeastern services out of Blackfriars, just because then it'd be 7xx's exclusively!

 

[DA1]

I've heard that some training on 707s will soon begin at SE this December so they must be expecting them soonish. Recruitment taking place for various 707 roles as well.

 

[AverageTD]

In response to the order at which the SWR trains were going to be replaced, originally it was going to be 458>707>455/456 but with the 701s being so delayed the 707s may well be heading off to SE first. As much as I enjoy travelling on them the 458s are in a terrible state with the majority of the blame on SWR. SWT managed to keep them alive but most units have broken windows, non functioning doors or cushions falling off seats. I'm sure SWR are in a great hurry to get rid of them but if the 701s keep on getting delayed then they may be forced to give up the 707s while the 458s are forced to keep going.

 

[DorkingMain]

In response to the order at which the SWR trains were going to be replaced, originally it was going to be 458>707>455/456 but with the 701s being so delayed the 707s may well be heading off to SE first. As much as I enjoy travelling on them the 458s are in a terrible state with the majority of the blame on SWR. SWT managed to keep them alive but most units have broken windows, non functioning doors or cushions falling off seats. I'm sure SWR are in a great hurry to get rid of them but if the 701s keep on getting delayed then they may be forced to give up the 707s while the 458s are forced to keep going.

One 707 is going to be released to Southeastern early for training purposes. They are going to be the last stock to be replaced though in the current plan.

 

[py_megapixel]

One 707 is going to be released to Southeastern early for training purposes. They are going to be the last stock to be replaced though in the current plan.

But surely if SE have already arranged for the transfers to occur on certain dates then SWR may be contractually obligated to release them, even if it would involve breaking their original order?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

But surely if SE have already arranged for the transfers to occur on certain dates then SWR may be contractually obligated to release them, even if it would involve breaking their original order?

With traffic levels considerably depressed currently but with the need to maintain capacity for social distancing these stock moves should be put on hold as there is no urgency for SE to receive them. The railway is essentially in govt control now and can make this happen but we desperately need a fat controller to lead from the front to ensure common sense prevails.

 

[ComUtoR]

One 707 is going to be released to Southeastern early for training purposes. They are going to be the last stock to be replaced though in the current plan.

Four

With traffic levels considerably depressed currently but with the need to maintain capacity for social distancing these stock moves should be put on hold as there is no urgency for SE to receive them. The railway is essentially in govt control now and can make this happen but we desperately need a fat controller to lead from the front to ensure common sense prevails.

The urgency is the need for training or there will be a repeat of the GTR 700 introduction fiasco. If anything, now is the best time to start the training as there are more paths available and a higher availability of Drivers.

 

[adc82140]

Once the 442s are cleared for re entry to traffic, SWR could I suppose cascade internally to free up some 707s.

 

[brad465]

Do 707s have known service allocations yet for when they start passenger services? The belief is that as they currently have no toilets fitted they'll be doing similar to what 376s are doing.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Four



The urgency is the need for training or there will be a repeat of the GTR 700 introduction fiasco. If anything, now is the best time to start the training as there are more paths available and a higher availability of Drivers.

There is some logic to that but also a risk that drivers get trained and the trains don't come as quickly as expected and that training needs refreshing. The issue though is providing a reliable railway now that doesn't suffer capacity constraints that put people off travelling so my view remains that maintaining status quo is remains paramount over everything else. Rightly or wrongly SWR have clearly allowed the 458's to deteriorate and they now risk a shortage of serviceable stock for no real gain elsewhere. The 360's needed to be moved to EMT but GA bought in stood down units from elsewhere so no deficit was created nor a loss of capacity on GE services.

As adc81240 says the 442's should be placed into traffic to release 450's but this really only stems the deteriorating availability of 458's given whats being reported by others.

 

[Chiltern006]

Do 707s have known service allocations yet for when they start passenger services? The belief is that as they currently have no toilets fitted they'll be doing similar to what 376s are doing.

they'll be signed by orpington drivers (most likely) as they sign 700s which i believe aren't too dissimilar to 707s. they may just put them on Victoria metro services, so Victoria has a dedicated metro stock, but i have no idea

 

[py_megapixel]

With traffic levels considerably depressed currently but with the need to maintain capacity for social distancing these stock moves should be put on hold as there is no urgency for SE to receive them. The railway is essentially in govt control now and can make this happen but we desperately need a fat controller to lead from the front to ensure common sense prevails.

Unfortunately what would make sense and what is contractually required are all too often not the same.

 

[CBlue]

they'll be signed by orpington drivers (most likely) as they sign 700s which i believe aren't too dissimilar to 707s. they may just put them on Victoria metro services, so Victoria has a dedicated metro stock, but i have no idea

Perhaps not quite as simple as you suggest.

It was only some Orpington drivers who signed 700s, and the ones that did haven’t for quite a while now. A full traction course will still be needed.

700s are totally different to 707s anyway. They have different software and quirks etc

 

[Peregrine 4903]

they'll be signed by orpington drivers (most likely) as they sign 700s which i believe aren't too dissimilar to 707s. they may just put them on Victoria metro services, so Victoria has a dedicated metro stock, but i have no idea

I don't think they will be assigned to Victoria metro services, as they will be unable to stop at Brixton in the down direction in 10 coach formation as they will foul the junction for the Catford Loop Lines.

 

[ComUtoR]

There is some logic to that but also a risk that drivers get trained and the trains don't come as quickly as expected and that training needs refreshing. The issue though is providing a reliable railway now that doesn't suffer capacity constraints that put people off travelling so my view remains that maintaining status quo is remains paramount over everything else.

A full traction course is around 7 days but a refresher can be just a single day. With the staggering number of training days required you just cannot logistically run Drivers through courses in short periods of time. Thameslink suffered greatly, lets learn from the past and try not to repeat it.

As to the status quo, that kinda has little to no real value. The railway has to move forward, stagnation is detrimental to the long term health of the railway. We need new units and new Drivers to maintain the status quo just as much as protecting for the future. If you don't have the resources in place then everything will eventually collapse. As you say, SWR has left the 458s to deterioriate. They were so focussed on maintaining the status quo that the we are now at a point where P*** Poor Planning has got us.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2020 ==

Perhaps not quite as simple as you suggest.

Quite.

700s are totally different to 707s anyway. They have different software and quirks etc

The differences are pretty minor

 

[Fincra5]

I don't think they will be assigned to Victoria metro services, as they will be unable to stop at Brixton in the down direction in 10 coach formation as they will foul the junction for the Catford Loop Lines.

Its no uncommon to stop at a station and foul a junction for a Min. Look at Lewes, if you run an 8 car or over on the East Coastway to Brighton, you foul the junction but it's only for a station stop..