Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

[GW43125]

The 00:23 is just a standard 2Nxx service, but it is formed off a Reading-Ascot service.

Ah I see

 

[Kite159]

Silly question, but has any more 707s entered service since 028 & 029?

 

[GW43125]

7028 & 7009 are your lucky numbers today on 2S17 08:22 Waterloo-Weybridge
7003 & 7012 are your lucky numbers on the 14:37 rounder

 

[GW43125]

7001&7002 are paired sans pantograph in the siding nearest to the Windsor no lines at Clapham yard

 

[randompixel]

Just noticed the wash at CJ has "Class 707 - enter Wash Mode before entering" (or words to that effect)

What's special about a 707? Speed limit? Shuts down something?

 

[TEW]

707028+707009 working 2U17, 0828 London Waterloo-Windsor & Eton Riverside this morning.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What I want to know is what would have happened if SWT had retained the franchise. Obviously they would keep the 707s then, but surely they would need to order more stock! I mean, the 458s are getting on a bit and new traction motors or not, the 455s and 456s, especially the former. There are only 30x 707s and there would have been seventy odd 455s, thirty six 458s (possibly, as they are from this decade they might have been left alone) and a handful of 456s to replace!

 

[Goldfish62]

What I want to know is what would have happened if SWT had retained the franchise. Obviously they would keep the 707s then, but surely they would need to order more stock! I mean, the 458s are getting on a bit and new traction motors or not, the 455s and 456s, especially the former. There are only 30x 707s and there would have been seventy odd 455s, thirty six 458s (possibly, as they are from this decade they might have been left alone) and a handful of 456s to replace!

General consensus is that they would have dumped the 455/456s and probably ordered more 707s. 458s were going to be retained.

 

[D365]

General consensus is that they would have dumped the 455/456s and probably ordered more 707s. 458s were going to be retained.

If Stagecoach was touting a further batch of the 707s, which are considered unsuitable; would that not partially explain why they didn't retain the franchise..?

 

[pompeyfan]

Wouldn’t say the 707s are unsuitable. First want a uniform fleet for the whole operation. The only benefit the new stock will have is working toilets on the stock and lower leasing costs. The 707s are considered expensive to lease.

 

[swt_passenger]

If Stagecoach was touting a further batch of the 707s, which are considered unsuitable; would that not partially explain why they didn't retain the franchise..?

Further 707s wouldn't have necessarily had the same interior layout. The ITT pointed out that DfT wanted the metro standing allowance of 0.25 sq m per passenger, and the 707s only achieved 0.35 sq m. In that sense the 707s were unsuitable as delivered, but may have possibly been alterable to fit DfT's requirements.
I'm not convinced the 458/5s would meet the metro requirement either though, wasn't it all about dwell time reduction at Clapham Junction?

 

[swt_passenger]

There are only 30x 707s and there would have been seventy odd 455s, thirty six 458s (possibly, as they are from this decade they might have been left alone) and a handful of 456s to replace!

You have to consider vehicle numbers. It's 91 x 4 car 455s, 24 x 2 car 456s, and 36 x 5 car 458/5s. 412 vehicles if just the 455/456s. 592 including the 458/5 vehicles. 150 to replace the 707s brings up 742.

I suggest Stagecoach would have ordered at least the 412 vehicle equivalent, but in 5 car form. So maybe 82 more 707s or similar. Half that for 10 car fixed formation units.

SWR's 750 20m vehicles is only the existing fleet replacemet rounded up from 742. The main SWR capacity increase, in terms of vehicle numbers on the overall network, is really the 442s. There's been no evidence that Stagecoach would have gone for that solution.

The 458s are not 'from this decade', they were converted in this decade but are nearly 20 year old stock, build started in 1998.

 

[43096]

You have to consider vehicle numbers. It's 91 x 4 car 455s, 24 x 2 car 456s, and 36 x 5 car 458/5s. 412 vehicles if just the 455/456s. 592 including the 458/5 vehicles. 150 to replace the 707s brings up 742.

I suggest Stagecoach would have ordered at least the 412 vehicle equivalent, but in 5 car form. So maybe 82 more 707s or similar. Half that for 10 car fixed formation units.

SWR's 750 20m vehicles is only the existing fleet replacemet rounded up from 742. The main SWR capacity increase, in terms of vehicle numbers on the overall network, is really the 442s. There's been no evidence that Stagecoach would have gone for that solution.

The 458s are not 'from this decade', they were converted in this decade but are nearly 20 year old stock, build started in 1998.

Ignoring the 456s, as they are there to make 455 pairs up to 10-car, I make the number of diagrams as follows:
86 x 455
32 x 458
27 x 707
So total 145 diagrams, each of 5 cars = 725 cars required in traffic.
Assuming 95% availability that means roughly 765 cars required. The 750 car order would be over 96% availability, which is really pushing it. That is without adding in the requirement for additional services like the doubling of frequency to Windsor (estimate of 5 10-car turns required), or making all Hounslow loop trains 10-car (there are some 5-car services currently).

On the other hand the Reading line changeover frees up something like 22 450s, of which 5 go to Ascot-Guildford, and 442s on the Portsmouth direct free up a load more 450s. So where do these go? They must be on the outer suburbans as the door cycle time on them is not suitable for anything else.

I still don't see how the number of cars in the Aventra order stacks up with the service requirement, as it looks to be around 70 cars short. A cunning plan by First to then go back to Angel and Porterbrook for a price shootout on the 707s and 458s?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You have to consider vehicle numbers. It's 91 x 4 car 455s, 24 x 2 car 456s, and 36 x 5 car 458/5s. 412 vehicles if just the 455/456s. 592 including the 458/5 vehicles. 150 to replace the 707s brings up 742.

I suggest Stagecoach would have ordered at least the 412 vehicle equivalent, but in 5 car form. So maybe 82 more 707s or similar. Half that for 10 car fixed formation units.

SWR's 750 20m vehicles is only the existing fleet replacemet rounded up from 742. The main SWR capacity increase, in terms of vehicle numbers on the overall network, is really the 442s. There's been no evidence that Stagecoach would have gone for that solution.

The 458s are not 'from this decade', they were converted in this decade but are nearly 20 year old stock, build started in 1998.

Im sorry my mistakes!

 

[pompeyfan]

Ignoring the 456s, as they are there to make 455 pairs up to 10-car, I make the number of diagrams as follows:
86 x 455
32 x 458
27 x 707
So total 145 diagrams, each of 5 cars = 725 cars required in traffic.
Assuming 95% availability that means roughly 765 cars required. The 750 car order would be over 96% availability, which is really pushing it. That is without adding in the requirement for additional services like the doubling of frequency to Windsor (estimate of 5 10-car turns required), or making all Hounslow loop trains 10-car (there are some 5-car services currently).

On the other hand the Reading line changeover frees up something like 22 450s, of which 5 go to Ascot-Guildford, and 442s on the Portsmouth direct free up a load more 450s. So where do these go? They must be on the outer suburbans as the door cycle time on them is not suitable for anything else.

I still don't see how the number of cars in the Aventra order stacks up with the service requirement, as it looks to be around 70 cars short. A cunning plan by First to then go back to Angel and Porterbrook for a price shootout on the 707s and 458s?

I don’t think you’re far from the point, you’d assume the 707s will come out trumps simply because they’re already DOO and toilets are relatively easy to fit.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think that somewhere in the suburban area there will still be a few 450s involved. Perhaps timed so that they are operating down trains in the morning high peak. Do any current 455 diagrams run fast through Clapham Jn, perhaps the peak extras from Woking?

 

[pompeyfan]

Some of the 2F9X trains run fast from Surbiton. I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that one already runs as a 12.450

 

[swt_passenger]

Weybridge shuttle 450s - presumably just one pair, or would a single unit manage as no longer a through service?

 

[Robert Carroll]

I think that somewhere in the suburban area there will still be a few 450s involved. Perhaps timed so that they are operating down trains in the morning high peak. Do any current 455 diagrams run fast through Clapham Jn, perhaps the peak extras from Woking?

There are a couple of fast Guildford via Cobham trains up in the morning peak and one down in the evening which are 455/456 and non-stop between Surbiton and Waterloo using the fast lines. Also one or two from Woking are/were 455/456 in the morning but at least one of these is now 10x707.

The odd morning peak Esher starter is 8x455 and calls only at Raynes Park, Wimbledon and Earlsfield, so it runs non-stop through the slow line platform at Clapham Junction.

Finally there is the evening Hampton Court flyer - I forget the exact time but around 19.20 - which is 8x455 and calls only at Surbiton, Thames Ditton and Hampton Court. It uses the stock from the 1800 Waterloo-Epsom and I think is there to plug a gap in the fast Surbiton service.

There is also a fair bit of unscheduled non-stop running by 455s when there is service disruption.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks Robert, and welcome to the forums.

That does suggest another few alternative possibilities.

I think another point is that any bigger fleet of the same type of unit (the Aventras) ought to provide higher utilisation than multiple fleets of incompatible units.

 

[pompeyfan]

Desiros calling at station via Cobham or Leatherhead lose considerable time apparently and only happen in an emergency. Via Cobham it’s possible that the crew aren’t used to calling at the stations but Leatherhead there’s no excuse.

 

[TEW]

I think that somewhere in the suburban area there will still be a few 450s involved. Perhaps timed so that they are operating down trains in the morning high peak. Do any current 455 diagrams run fast through Clapham Jn, perhaps the peak extras from Woking?

At present, the morning peak stopping service between Woking and Surbiton is provided largely by 12-car 450s, all running fast between Surbiton and London Waterloo.
The 0632 Woking-London Waterloo is an 8-455 and makes the usual intermediate calls between Surbiton and London Waterloo. The next 455 operated service is the 08:17 Woking-London Waterloo which is fast from Surbiton to London Waterloo. It is currently a 10-car 707 but will revert to an 8-455 soon. After that there is the 0820 Guildford-London Waterloo (0832 at Woking) which is an 8-455 with the standard calling pattern.
In the evening at present the standard 2tph pattern remains with 8-455 formations, with an additional 2tph fast Waterloo to Surbiton with 12-450 formations.
The current proposals for December 2018 would see all evening peak Woking stopping services run fast to Surbiton, matching the current morning peak pattern. So they could all feasibly be 12 car 450s.

 

[TEW]

707026+707027 working the 0817 Woking-London Waterloo this morning.

 

[GW43125]

IS there a new diagram? 2S18 08:03 Weybridge-Waterloo is a UID pair of 707s this morning.

 

[TEW]

Yes there is:
5R90 0505 Clapham Yard-Hounslow 0525
2R90 0531 Hounslow-London Waterloo 0609
2S09 0622 London Waterloo -Weybridge 0737
2S18 0803 Weybridge-London Waterloo 0926
2V19 0937 London Waterloo -London Waterloo 1102
2R25 1115 London Waterloo -London Waterloo 1241
2S35 1252 London Waterloo- Weybridge 1407
2S44 1433 Weybridge-London Waterloo 1556
2V45 1607 London Waterloo-London Waterloo 1731
2R51 1745 London Waterloo-London Waterloo 1911
Then splits for:
2C99 1935 London Waterloo-Reading 2057
5C94 2107 Reading-London Waterloo 2243
And
2S61 1922 London Waterloo-Weybridge 2039
2S70 2103 Weybridge-London Waterloo
Then join for:
5Y50 2250 London Waterloo-Clapham Yard Sidings 2328

 

[pompeyfan]

Assume they’ve fixed the issues that mean that have to run around as pairs now then? Was it a simple fix?

 

[TEW]

The issue wasn't so much that they couldn't run as single units, but that coupling and uncoupling was only permitted in depots. A single unit did make it out on one of the diagrams last week instead of a pair.

 

[pompeyfan]

The issue wasn't so much that they couldn't run as single units, but that coupling and uncoupling was only permitted in depots. A single unit did make it out on one of the diagrams last week instead of a pair.

Okay, I assume then whatever prevented them from attaching/detaching in platforms has been resolved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A double set just arrived at Clapham Jn from the London direction if that's of any interest to anyone. Too far from Platform 16 for me to tell which ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And one just went towards London.

Sort of has the look of an air conditioned souped up PEP EMU. Are the doors narrower than the 700s? They look it.