Class 701 SWR introduction delays: what should happen now?

[DennisM]

The reduced training course would pretty much double the speed of training. With the correct agreement and a positive union/management position there's no reason why they couldn't be introduced in time to prevent service reduction due to the aging 455s.

SWR Drivers are due pay rise in April, if that can be settled quickly and at an agreeable percentage it could make a new shorter course more appealing to ASLEF and its members.
Better yet the DFT could use its puppet strings to make that all happen under SWR’s management. They could then reap the rewards of a fast rollout, without the nationalised operator being seen as ‘giving in to union demands’ Etc...

 

[3141]

The thing is... Even if training miraculously restarted post transition. We are now at a point where service reductions or expensive life extension works on the Class 455 are a near certainty. I don't think there's a conspiracy behind this.

Actually the conspirators are aiming to make nationalisation seem like a bad thing, with service reductions happening as class 455s start being taken out of service as soon as SWR passes into the public sector.

I reckon that suggestion is at least as convincing as the one which says the current delay is designed to show nationalisation having a quick win.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Actually the conspirators are aiming to make nationalisation seem like a bad thing, with service reductions happening as class 455s start being taken out of service as soon as SWR passes into the public sector.

I reckon that suggestion is at least as convincing as the one which says the current delay is designed to show nationalisation having a quick win.

Trying to work out who's conspiring against who conspiring against who:



To be honest, it could be an internal battle where both are trying to make themselves look like the righteous. FirstGroup certainly aren't happy with the prospect of nationalisation and the government will be wanting to make nationalisation look like stepup from what came before.

 

[D365]

Trying to work out who's conspiring against who conspiring against who:

View attachment 176224

This is an accurate representation of railway internal organisation structures.

 

[The_Train]

Conspiracy theory time. Tin foils hats at the ready...

DfT are doing things behind the scenes to frustrate SWR introducing the 701s. The day after nationalisation, these barriers will disappear. Massive success story. Tea and medals for the transport secretary.

I think you are giving our Government far too much credit in thinking they could come up with something like this

 

[Snow1964]

What’s happening in May?

The lease on the 701s expires

Per Rock Rail South West Accounts (page 4, Residual Value Risk)

"The risk is at the end of the current lease, with the extension period ended in May 2025 the company's fleet will not be leased at rental levels that allow the remaining investment in the fleet to be recouped...."

Not seen anything yet about if DfT are extending the lease for all 750 vehicles, or perhaps only a smaller quantity say 50-60 10car equivalents, or maybe none at all and will order something else with 455s kept on another 3-4 years in interim.

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[The_Train]

The lease on the 701s expires

Per Rock Rail South West Accounts (page 4, Residual Value Risk)

"The risk is at the end of the current lease, with the extension period ended in May 2025 the company's fleet will not be leased at rental levels that allow the remaining investment in the fleet to be recouped...."

Not seen anything yet about if DfT are extending the lease for all 750 vehicles, or perhaps only a smaller quantity say 50-60 10car equivalents, or maybe none at all and will order something else with 455s kept on another 3-4 years in interim.

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

It also goes on to state "This risk is minimised through the lack of alternative rolling stock that can provide passenger services on the routes where the Company's trains operate"

There is no way whatsoever the Government will want to kick the all singing, all dancing GBR off with a failure on the magnitude of new trains being taken off lease before they have even started operating. I cannot see any other outcome than the lease for the full stock being renewed.

However the lease reaching an end after they have only got such a small percentage of trains into service pretty much sums up this whole debacle!

 

[OneTrackMinded]

There is no way whatsoever the Government will want to kick the all singing, all dancing GBR off with a failure on the magnitude of new trains being taken off lease before they have even started operating.

To be fair, they could easily blame the failure of the trains on SWR and state they are "cleaning up the mess" by removing them and ordering something else which they could then make a stronger case for.
However I quite heavily doubt this will happen.

 

[Thirteen]

To be fair, they could easily blame the failure of the trains on SWR and state they are "cleaning up the mess" by removing them and ordering something else which they could then make a stronger case for.
However I doubt this will happen.

There's no chance in hell the Government scrap new trains.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

There's no chance in hell the Government scrap new trains.

Scrap them no, but some on here suggest they would be better suited to other operators, like SE where DOO operation is already in full swing for example (and an ever delayed tender for "new or existing rolling stock).
Again I doubt anything major will happen but possibly the 30 /5s might see different work considering the grim outlook they have at the moment.

 

[Snow1964]

There's no chance in hell the Government scrap new trains.

No, but they don't own them. So nothing to stop them leaving them parked for a while. Currently happy to leave majority parked.

The leasing company would have assumed (when they committed to this about 7-8 years ago), that 701s would be in service, and 455s would be scrapped so no suitable alternatives, so extending lease would be easy.

They now find themselves with an alternative fleet (remaining 455s and 458s) that could continue for a while whilst a hard bargain is driven on a renewal rate.

At the moment (and this is not a speculation thread, so not going through all of the possibilities) would be very easy to lease 350/2 and buy some third rail pick up shoes, then refurb them as a 450 clone. Would this be cheaper alternative lease ? Unless nationalised SWR boosts services does it actually need all 75 (10car equivalent) trains, or could it lease smaller quantity.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The lease on the 701s expires

Per Rock Rail South West Accounts (page 4, Residual Value Risk)

"The risk is at the end of the current lease, with the extension period ended in May 2025 the company's fleet will not be leased at rental levels that allow the remaining investment in the fleet to be recouped...."

Not seen anything yet about if DfT are extending the lease for all 750 vehicles, or perhaps only a smaller quantity say 50-60 10car equivalents, or maybe none at all and will order something else with 455s kept on another 3-4 years in interim.

Are they all on lease yet?

Oddly, the December 2023 accounts say that fifty 10-car units and twenty 5-car units were accxepted up to the end of 2023, but the Companies House register shows notices of additional charges (ie mortgages) to twelve more ten car units and 21 five car units dated more recently.

That makes 62 ten car and 41 5-car! Or is there a gap between acceptance and mortgaging?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

with an alternative fleet (remaining 455s and 458s) that could continue

Probably another issue that's come up during all of this is who's paying for the lease extensions of the 455s. I'd assume Alstom as compenstation but that surely can only go on for so long without some other legal dispute. GBR are certianly going to be inheriting a handful when they take over.

 

[800001]

Probably another issue that's come up during all of this is who's paying for the lease extensions of the 455s. I'd assume Alstom as compenstation but that surely can only go on for so long without some other legal dispute. GBR are certianly going to be inheriting a handful when they take over.

Out of interest why Alstom?
There are trains there to be driven……..but crew not trained?

 

[LUYMun]

Per Rock Rail South West Accounts (page 4, Residual Value Risk)

"The risk is at the end of the current lease, with the extension period ended in May 2025 the company's fleet will not be leased at rental levels that allow the remaining investment in the fleet to be recouped...."

Which document is that under? There's loads on the Companies House site.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Out of interest why Alstom?
There are trains there to be driven……..but crew not trained?

Well this is where the dispute comes in. For a good few years it was their fault the trains were delayed. The question is for how long are they still considered the main responsible party?

 

[800001]

Well this is where the dispute comes in. For a good few years it was their fault the trains were delayed. The question is for how long are they still considered the main responsible party?

Only one winner here…….the lawyers arguing behind the scenes…..

 

[The_Train]

Which document is that under? There's loads on the Companies House site.

The Full Accounts on the 1st page

 

[NSEWonderer]

This thread has continued to go in a repeated cycle like the introduction of the 701s but on the topic of Alstom. Several pages of posts we know since that we've only seen 6 units actively in passenger service whilst actively being tested for passenger readiness the other units(18, 25, 44, 34, 46, 42 and 51) have not all yet transitioned due to various reasons with these units. Aventra's have always had a troubled introduction phase, the Elizabeth line in its 1st full COS running year was swamped with issues and that was with which stock had already been running(albeit as 7 car on the GEML and GWML beforehand).

Alstom was literally forced and pushed by TFL and Elizabeth line management to sort the issues as it was having a major effect on the service considering they had no backup units outside of the 345s to run. SWR unlike the Elizabeth Line already had existing fleet in the 455, 458 and 450s running the same routes the 701s were meant to be introduced on (7 years ago) which has had the effect of allowing this situation with the 701 unit introduction to struggle on. If the 455s had already fallen apart by now and the metro service was in absolute disarray, making news(like the service disruption delays initially on the Elizabeth line were) then no doubt would there have been dynamites up Alstom's backside and issues fixed.

SWR has its issues, driver training, getting rid of 707s long before a single passenger sat down on a 701 but the fact that there are still faults enough to affect more units than the mere 6 being introduced and rotated amongst the diagrams that exist is a major red flag. Sure Alstom had to modify the units due to wiper and cab concerns and add GOPs but surely that doesn't mean 7 years down the line or so you still have major issues with the fleet. The 345s still had several issues till about early 2024 for comparison. Only the 720s have really had a somewhat smooth introduction in the Aventra lineup.

Anyway we've discussed in length of who's fault it is and this and that, none are updates as the title suggests as we've already highlighted the main parties to blame. Thread should at at least be allowed now to see actual progress posts even if that takes eternity.

 

[Goldfish62]

SWR have pronounced on the matter and no matter how much some people want to continue blaming the trains the actual delay is as expected due to training (lack of):

A rail firm has admitted it has no idea when a long-awaited £1billion fleet of new trains meant to ease overcrowding on services in and out of London Waterloo will all be running.

But only five of the 90 trains are currently in use – and a SWR boss said delays in training drivers meant that he was unable to give a date when the rest of the fleet would be unveiled.
Many of the new 10-carriage, air conditioned, walk through trains are parked up in depots including at Clapham Junction due to delays in training drivers.

One industry expert told The Standard that SWR was unable to release drivers to attend training programmes for the new Arterio because it had too few staff - and sending them on a course would result in driver shortages on its day-to-day services.
David Wilby, SWR’s regional development manager, told a meeting of Wandsworth council’s passenger transport liaison group on Monday night: “This is not the most positive news.

“We still hope to have the trains rolled out according to schedule. But, at the moment, it’s not going as we planned and as we previously said.”
Asked by Cllr Jenny Yates if he had a likely date for all the new trains to be running, he replied: “Er, no.”
Mr Wilby added: “All the red trains were planned to be replaced with the new ones. Everything you see with eight carriages is planned to be replaced with 10-carrriage walk-through trains.
“You can see those [trains] – they’re parked up in Clapham Junction most of the time.
“The trains are here – it’s just the training to bring them into service that is taking longer than expected.”

A South Western Railway spokesperson said: “We are sorry that the Arterio rollout is taking longer than previously expected. We are continuing to work with all our stakeholders as we seek to speed up the training programme and to deliver the customer benefits of the new Arterio trains as quickly as possible.”

Waterloo woe: £1billion fleet of new commuter trains stuck in sidings

Only 5 of 90 Arterio trains that were due in 2019 are currently in service

www.standard.co.uk

 

[I_am_Nobody]

Thread should at at least be allowed now to see actual progress posts even if that takes eternity.

Just to let you know, this is the Speculative Discussion thread, not the update thread. You can find that one here.

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I entirely suspect that the upper management of SWR will find itself employed elsewhere swiftly when nationalisation comes along and the DfT take on ultimate and full control, and I’m praying that saner and clearer, more sensible minds take over the roles and properly think through a plan. letting the 707s go to SE before they were no longer needed was a terrible decision. Yes, SE needed them, but so too did SWR… and let’s not even forget one of the reasons they were going because they lacked toilets… wait, aren’t they now being retrofitted with toilets? Sigh… so much evidence of mismanagement.

I have been on a handful of the new “all singing, all dancing, all falling apart” 701s, I noticed that the air-conditioning seemed to be trying to make several different coaches different temperatures. It was very jarring walking from one coach being blown full of cold air to another having got air spat in my direction. I’m not sure they’re a considerable improvement… yet. They have potential.

 

[NSEWonderer]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

Just to let you know, this is the Speculative Discussion thread, not the update thread. You can find that one here.

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I entirely suspect that the upper management of SWR will find itself employed elsewhere swiftly when nationalisation comes along and the DfT take on ultimate and full control, and I’m praying that saner and clearer, more sensible minds take over the roles and properly think through a plan. letting the 707s go to SE before they were no longer needed was a terrible decision. Yes, SE needed them, but so too did SWR… and let’s not even forget one of the reasons they were going because they lacked toilets… wait, aren’t they now being retrofitted with toilets? Sigh… so much evidence of mismanagement.

I have been on a handful of the new “all singing, all dancing, all falling apart” 701s, I noticed that the air-conditioning seemed to be trying to make several different coaches different temperatures. It was very jarring walking from one coach being blown full of cold air to another having got air spat in my direction. I’m not sure they’re a considerable improvement… yet. They have potential.

Im aware, I believe it was moved to here by a mod from the original thread

 

[Sutton in Ant]

What can I say about these continuous delays in the introduction of SWR 701s? I am well aware that the government is taking over the SWR route as I think that the government will hurry along the introduction as if the comedy show had continued under SWR? I would have bet that the companies who ran SWR would have been told to find the exit and use it and would have lost the franchise.

 

[D365]

What can I say about these continuous delays in the introduction of SWR 701s? I am well aware that the government is taking over the SWR route as I think that the government will hurry along the introduction as if the comedy show had continued under SWR? I would have bet that the companies who ran SWR would have been told to find the exit and use it and would have lost the franchise.

I’ve read your post several times, but am none the wiser as to what point you’re making.

 

[infobleep]

Just to let you know, this is the Speculative Discussion thread, not the update thread. You can find that one here.

-

I entirely suspect that the upper management of SWR will find itself employed elsewhere swiftly when nationalisation comes along and the DfT take on ultimate and full control, and I’m praying that saner and clearer, more sensible minds take over the roles and properly think through a plan. letting the 707s go to SE before they were no longer needed was a terrible decision. Yes, SE needed them, but so too did SWR… and let’s not even forget one of the reasons they were going because they lacked toilets… wait, aren’t they now being retrofitted with toilets? Sigh… so much evidence of mismanagement..

But South Western Railway are not paying for the toilets.

Here is an idea, how about they retrofit toilets on the 455s. I'll get my coat.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What can I say about these continuous delays in the introduction of SWR 701s? I am well aware that the government is taking over the SWR route as I think that the government will hurry along the introduction as if the comedy show had continued under SWR? I would have bet that the companies who ran SWR would have been told to find the exit and use it and would have lost the franchise.

Can you explain please ?.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Okay. Well, I will say this. SWR if it wasn't taken over by the government. I feel that they should have lost the franchise over this 701 debarcle.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Okay. Well, I will say this. SWR if it wasn't taken over by the government. I feel that they should have lost the franchise over this 701 debarcle.

Had Covid not happened and the same situation and delays occurred then it's probable they would have or even handed in the keys themselves.

 

[WWTownEnth]

starting to wonder if there is something seriously wrong with these 701s

Is it too late to get the 455s back?

 

[43096]

Is it too late to get the 455s back?

I hope that is a rhetorical question!