Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[cjmillsnun]

Erm the majority of operators have introduced new fleets to service in the last five years - exceptions are probably Chiltern, EMR, XC, Northern and Southern. More to the point I suspect those same doors which "Arterios" are suffering, are problem the same on 345s, 710s and 720s, and maybe also the software and hardware that controls and interlocks them.

The 27xx vehicles that Alstom nee Bombardier have constructed and delivered surely must have very similar "intelligence" and architecture, albeit with different shaped plastic cabs and some different traction supplies.

I think you failed to realise the sarcasm in MontyP's post.

 

[tomuk]

Don't blame the workforce.

Why not partly? If the Aventras are acceptable to WMR and GA and Tfl drivers, why all the problems at SWR? Also note management have a role in making the staff recalcitrant too.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

If the Aventras are acceptable to WMR and GA and Tfl drivers, why all the problems at SWR?

There could be multitude of different reasons. The one that comes to mind is differing specification between the different TOC’s units.

 

[tomuk]

There could be multitude of different reasons. The one that comes to mind is differing specification between the different TOC’s units.

Thats why I listed the TOCs I did. WMR sets haring the snub nose cabs with the 701s unlike the earlier Aventras.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thats why I listed the TOCs I did. WMR sets haring the snub nose cabs with the 701s unlike the earlier Aventras.

I think the position of the back wall of the cab might be an issue. I seem to recall the cab on a 701 was small because the back wall is in a different position to other Aventras. Also the WMR Aventras have a cab with a gangway connection through it so might be very different inside !.

 

[tomuk]

I think the position of the back wall of the cab might be an issue. I seem to recall the cab on a 701 was small because the back wall is in a different position to other Aventras. Also the WMR Aventras have a cab with a gangway connection through it so might be very different inside !.

The WMR Aventras share the revised smaller cab with the 701s albeit with an added gangway.. It is similar to the difference between 317s\455s and 321s\319s.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Why not partly? If the Aventras are acceptable to WMR and GA and Tfl drivers, why all the problems at SWR? Also note management have a role in making the staff recalcitrant too.

Who said they were intially acceptable? Of the list only GAs actual trains seemed to bed in smoothly. The rest had a very rocky time especially 345s and 710s. 345s had under carriage equipment warnings due to some spontaneously going up in flames, for one, making unit prep walks interesting.

Various issues that plagued the start of full running for almost 2 years. That was on trains that had already been running for some years. 710s had various similar issues more so door and software issues which unsurprisingly are what the 701s are seeing. If other industry staff are seeing those issues occur on those other Aventras more so unions then it's understandable that they'd not want rushed units in unless they're properly tested to be deemed safe enough.

701s rollout has been challenging and will be until the few blockades are removed which unsurprisingly will most likely be come May. There's been a lot of prodding and pinching from different parties which weren't as so with a of the 3 other Toc rollout either.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Who said they were intially acceptable? Of the list only GAs actual trains seemed to bed in smoothly. The rest had a very rocky time especially 345s and 710s. 345s had under carriage equipment warnings due to some spontaneously going up in flames, for one, making unit prep walks interesting.

To be fair though, those issues are all sorted now, 345s especially. So hopefully that will be the same case with the 701s eventually

 

[tomuk]

Who said they were intially acceptable? Of the list only GAs actual trains seemed to bed in smoothly. The rest had a very rocky time especially 345s and 710s. 345s had under carriage equipment warnings due to some spontaneously going up in flames, for one, making unit prep walks interesting.

Various issues that plagued the start of full running for almost 2 years. That was on trains that had already been running for some years. 710s had various similar issues more so door and software issues which unsurprisingly are what the 701s are seeing. If other industry staff are seeing those issues occur on those other Aventras more so unions then it's understandable that they'd not want rushed units in unless they're properly tested to be deemed safe enough.

701s rollout has been challenging and will be until the few blockades are removed which unsurprisingly will most likely be come May. There's been a lot of prodding and pinching from different parties which weren't as so with a of the 3 other Toc rollout either.

Nobody including me. Aventra introduction has been rocky all round but WMR is happily operating 730s on Cross City and Euston services and GA has theirs in squadron service. The odd one out is SWR. As for your safety point I again refer to WMR and GA and et al. Are you suggesting they are operating unsafe stock?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Don't blame the workforce.

Who do we blame then? God?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Don't blame the workforce.

It's called the "militant south west" for a reason

 

[NSEWonderer]

Nobody including me. Aventra introduction has been rocky all round but WMR is happily operating 730s on Cross City and Euston services and GA has theirs in squadron service. The odd one out is SWR. As for your safety point I again refer to WMR and GA and et al. Are you suggesting they are operating unsafe stock?

You're inferring that with your last question, not worth entertaining it. What I'm saying and you've just reiterated is that all but GA have had rocky introductions fleet wise as far as the trains themselves. That has been a big and constant factor across the Aventra fleet.

WMR are also not happily running 730s trouble free running especially with the 730/2s still out the way but without digressing much the 701s aren't in an acceptable state hence why only a few are passenger service ready, they will be at least once all the barriers may it be are out the way like it were for the very TOCs mentioned above. They're a massive improvement over the Desiro and 455 on the metro services and will do very well I expect come end of the year(I'd put money on that).

 

[OneTrackMinded]

On the topic of Aventras in general, I wish the TOCs would push for Alstom to improve the PIS software. It's really bad at the moment, especially on the 701. It's very slow to respond and when the train arrives at the station it shows a blank screen for 3 seconds before displaying anything. Additionally, the scrolling, which is only present on 701s and 730s, is very stuttery and jumpy for some reason.. surely the hardware isn't that bad that it can't cope with scrolling text? I believe the software is just *that* bad.

(Also, after multiple years, the 701 still says "tfl rail" on the status page....)

 

[norbitonflyer]

On the topic of Aventras in general, I wish the TOCs would push for Alstom to improve the PIS software. It's really bad at the moment, especially on the 701. It's very slow to respond and when the train arrives at the station it shows a blank screen for 3 seconds before displaying anything. Additionally, the scrolling, which is only present on 701s and 730s, is very stuttery and jumpy for some reason.. surely the hardware isn't that bad that it can't cope with scrolling text? I believe the software is just *that* bad.

They may have done so on some of the ones in store, but I don't think they are going to tinker with the 701s that are already in service until there are a few more. Trying to change something might have unintended consequences that make matters worse, and there are few enough in service without risking losing another.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's called the "militant south west" for a reason

Going right back to my childhood in the 60s I remember that was the reputation, deserved or not. It's also mentioned in Bob Reid's biography!

 

[tomuk]

You're inferring that with your last question, not worth entertaining it. What I'm saying and you've just reiterated is that all but GA have had rocky introductions fleet wise as far as the trains themselves. That has been a big and constant factor across the Aventra fleet.

WMR are also not happily running 730s trouble free running especially with the 730/2s still out the way but without digressing much the 701s aren't in an acceptable state hence why only a few are passenger service ready, they will be at least once all the barriers may it be are out the way like it were for the very TOCs mentioned above. They're a massive improvement over the Desiro and 455 on the metro services and will do very well I expect come end of the year(I'd put money on that).

Aren't acceptable to who? And is that state any higher or lower than GA and WMR have accepted?

 

[Peter Wilde]

What's the significance of 175 years?
It hasnt (yet) taken that long to get them in service

Come on, be fair!

The previous name was inaccurate. The decimal point had been left out. The intended, forward-looking name was 17.5 Years.

 

[Juniper Driver]

It's called the "militant south west" for a reason

Who by? The press as usual?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2025 ==

Who do we blame then? God?

Blame the workforce, that's what you've done already.Well done.I don't think it's as militant as it used to be.
I think you should be blaming multiple factors, not just one factor, but you aren't.

 

[pompeyfan]

Who by? The press as usual?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Apr 2025 ==


Blame the workforce, that's what you've done already.Well done.I don't think it's as militant as it used to be.
I think you should be blaming multiple factors, not just one factor, but you aren't.

If it was purely the “militant drivers” then surely the 707s wouldn’t have entered without an industrial dispute?

Considering how often drivers move around TOCs in the London area, you’d have thought the militancy would have spread, or been watered down by other TOC drivers coming in?

 

[Juniper Driver]

If it was purely the “militant drivers” then surely the 707s wouldn’t have entered without an industrial dispute?

Considering how often drivers move around TOCs in the London area, you’d have thought the militancy would have spread, or been watered down by other TOC drivers coming in?

Exactly. I've never heard the term "Militant South Western" before.I think it's just what people want to believe.
Also, the Desiro's in 2004.

The 458 4 cars to 5 cars then back to 4 car conversion.
No problem although our moan was nothing was done to the cabs.
Originally they were only going to train a few links of drivers but I heard my link are going to learn them as well.
Won't take long as we've driven them before.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Aren't acceptable to who? And is that state any higher or lower than GA and WMR have accepted?

You're comparing Apples to Oranges here and simply it's going round in circles. 701s have been in far longer storage than GA and WMR units you keep mentioning, faults and various other issues on those stored units whenever they come out of storage have yet to then be found thru trial testing before becoming anywhere near passenger acceptable.

Hence why there is only a mere handful of the units out and about carrying passengers. The only comparable similarity to other Aventra TOCs is how poor intial Aventra reliability is, which will only improve(rather painfully in several cases minus again GA and C2C) once there is units running about and basically failing here and there to have faults identified and fixed.

If you'd like to get out one of the 701s that have been stored in the salty air of Marchwood for a long time to see how acceptable, condition wise it is then go ahead Hence the process of passenger ready trials even if its been painfully slow due to other factors well discussed in this thread.

 

[swtrains]

Today's testing:

5T91 - Clapham Yard - Aldershot - goes via Richmond and Addlestone.
5T92 - Aldershot - Clapham Yard - goes back the same way.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q37805/2025-04-07/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q37804/2025-04-07/detailed

 

[Tirov]

Todays Waterloo visitors

031 046 043 037 017 036 039 035

 

[tomuk]

You're comparing Apples to Oranges here and simply it's going round in circles. 701s have been in far longer storage than GA and WMR units you keep mentioning, faults and various other issues on those stored units whenever they come out of storage have yet to then be found thru trial testing before becoming anywhere near passenger acceptable.

Hence why there is only a mere handful of the units out and about carrying passengers. The only comparable similarity to other Aventra TOCs is how poor intial Aventra reliability is, which will only improve(rather painfully in several cases minus again GA and C2C) once there is units running about and basically failing here and there to have faults identified and fixed.

If you'd like to get out one of the 701s that have been stored in the salty air of Marchwood for a long time to see how acceptable, condition wise it is then go ahead Hence the process of passenger ready trials even if its been painfully slow due to other factors well discussed in this thread.

So its now storage of the units that's the problem? The story just seems to change all the time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So its now storage of the units that's the problem? The story just seems to change all the time.

I can imagine storage for so long will have only made things worse.
HOWEVER
The question is what was the reason for the 701s getting stored ?.

 

[Stephen42]

So its now storage of the units that's the problem? The story just seems to change all the time.

There isn't a singular problem. If one of the challenges was instantly resolved tomorrow it wouldn't all automatically fall into place.

What appears to be the biggest current issue is lack of driver training. They could replace the single service diagram with two all day diagrams if they had sufficient trained crew available.

It's unclear how many units could be easily made available for passenger service if that was the limiting factor. There isn't a lot of storage at the depot locations, the lack of service diagrams makes it harder to send the older fleet away and use the space freed up for the next ones to be made ready/assessed for passenger service. That kind of question about fleet status and passenger service readiness might come out via FOI when SWR moves to the DfT operator. Questions about staff issues are less likely to be disclosed with one of the exemptions to the freedom of information act used.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There isn't a singular problem. If one of the challenges was instantly resolved tomorrow it wouldn't all automatically fall into place.

What appears to be the biggest current issue is lack of driver training. They could replace the single service diagram with two all day diagrams if they had sufficient trained crew available.

It's unclear how many units could be easily made available for passenger service if that was the limiting factor. There isn't a lot of storage at the depot locations, the lack of service diagrams makes it harder to send the older fleet away and use the space freed up for the next ones to be made ready/assessed for passenger service. That kind of question about fleet status and passenger service readiness might come out via FOI when SWR moves to the DfT operator. Questions about staff issues are less likely to be disclosed with one of the exemptions to the freedom of information act used.

So are you saying that SWR would hit a log jam while trying to get new units into service while needing the space for the units they were replacing ?.
Surely that should have been predictable.
But then what about all the space freed up by getting rid of 442s and 707s ?.

I agree there is unlikely to have been a single problem.
I dread to think how many hurdles are left to overcome and meanwhile the "new" trains sit gathering dust, rust and mould in sidings some near the sea (Marchwood) and others inland (Long Marston).
Enough hurdles have been seen and gone over.

It is times like this when I used to step pack from all the plausible excuses and have to accept there is a real big problem and its not getting solved.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I dread to think how many hurdles are left to overcome and meanwhile the "new" trains sit gathering dust, rust and mould in sidings some near the sea (Marchwood) and others inland (Long Marston).

One does wonder at what point the damage to all those electronics, including wiring, as well as the body work of the train itself, does it become financially viable to repair the train, or even possible at all.
A few months ago a 700 went into long term storage due to similar issues, where it was deemed impossible to fix.

 

[Lockwood]

It's like the Swiss cheese model. But the cheese has turned green and furry.

 

[Peter Sarf]

One does wonder at what point the damage to all those electronics, including wiring, as well as the body work of the train itself, does it become financially viable to repair the train, or even possible at all.
A few months ago a 700 went into long term storage due to similar issues, where it was deemed impossible to fix.

Indeed. I suspect this is a much worse issue with these more modern trains than it was with Mk1 and Mk3 EMUs.