Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[OneTrackMinded]

Do the 707's have the same short platform issues on crush loaded trains as the 701's? If not, could SE send back their 707's and get 701's in exchange, and schedule the 707's on the diagrams where short platforms/crush loading is a problem?

People seem to forget that there are 30 5 car 707s and 90 701s (60 of which are 10 cars, 30 5 car). So the 707s are nowhere near enough to achieve fleet replacement.
As for building more, the Desiro City range is now out of production and has been for years, so restarting that would come with considerable cost.
And even then, it would take time for them to all be built....
Reasonably speaking therefore, this will never happen and I'm not sure why people continue to talk about it on here like it's some viable solution

 

[MotCO]

People seem to forget that there are 30 5 car 707s and 90 701s (60 of which are 10 cars, 30 5 car). So the 707s are nowhere near enough to achieve fleet replacement.
As for building more, the Desiro City range is now out of production and has been for years, so restarting that would come with considerable cost.
And even then, it would take time for them to all be built....
Reasonably speaking therefore, this will never happen and I'm not sure why people continue to talk about it on here like it's some viable solution

I was assuming that SW would have a mixture of 701s and 707s, with the 707s operating on diagrams where crush loading causes problems.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I was assuming that SW would have a mixture of 701s and 707s, with the 707s operating on diagrams where crush loading causes problems.

I could add much to OneTrackMinded comments about production runs of new stock, and how fast such matters become obsolete when comparing original build batches to add-on batch requirements at a later date, but that goes too far OT.
Diagram wise it is often very difficult to cherry pic certain crush loaded trains in the timetable and assume 1 x diagram (or two diagrams for 2 x 5 car to be pedantic) can be worked to cover that particular service. Such trains are normally in the core/high peak periods, am and pm, and whilst TOC area coverage will vary per location, on the SW where Waterloo as a location was/likely still is the driving factor in diagram construction during the peaks, I always found that (suburban wise) if a core peak am inbound (to Waterloo) service could be covered with the most suitable stock (as you suggest) the natural diagram pattern during the day would mean that the same unit/pair of units would very often miss the core pm peak departures on the same day, so you'd need twice the number of units as against the number of core peak crush loaded services before you've even started.
Would love to explain in greater detail, but too far OT and some!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Do the 707's have the same short platform issues on crush loaded trains as the 701's?

No: beacuse they are 5-car units, so the guard can ride in one of the middle cabs of a ten car train

 

[Blindtraveler]

Tried a couple of these out yesterday, I do quite like them, although the love of much lighter weight design does result in some assorted squeaks and rattles, but generally speaking good offering which I'm sure will do well going forward

 

[Snow1964]

No: beacuse they are 5-car units, so the guard can ride in one of the middle cabs of a ten car train

They can on pairs of 5car 701s too

What I haven't managed to figure out is if the 30 half length (5car) 701s could in theory work as pairs on diagrams dedicated to the routes with short platforms (Hounslow loop, Windsor branch, etc). Would about dozen pairs be enough?

There might be a handful of stations where a quick platform extension is now a (relatively) cheaper fix than continued problems with non introduction

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There might be a handful of stations where a quick platform extension is now a (relatively) cheaper fix than continued problems with non introduction

I agree, but I am not sure that the words "quick" and "platform extension" go together these days.

 

[455Commuter]

Just come back to this thread after a few days away from devices. Noticed now on a stopping service (around 18:45) that half of a 10-car set was missing at Wimbledon depot. Not sure if it's been reported in this odyssey of a thread, but if it has, I'll keep shtum.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

half of a 10-car set was missing at Wimbledon depot.

701s can be split in half so they can enter the wheel lathe which can only accommodate 5 cars at Wimbledon Park Depot

 

[Big Jumby 74]

701s can be split in half so they can enter the wheel lathe which can only accommodate 5 cars at Wimbledon Park Depot

Beat me to it. Just one of a number of reasons a 10 car might be split. For those unaware the siding space on the wheel lathe road is such that there is limited space on the buffer stop end/side of the lathe, of said siding, which would prevent anything longer than a 5 car being accommodated if wheels on all cars were to be dealt with.

Here's one I took of a 4 Cig having it wheels reprofiled at Wimbledon. This was the old lathe, which has long since been replaced by a newer example.

 

[swtrains]

One of the Sunday diagrams introduced last month includes some rounders (it alternates Shepperton- Rounder - Shepperton etc) but it has only run three times so far, and not since 12th January (and one of those three times was not a Sunday - it was New Years Day). Certainly won't be running tomorrow as there is nothing at all through Wimbledon.

EDIT
Even as I type, I notice that 701031 is operating 2O11

How can they run it if Wimbledon has been closed for engineering works for the past few Sundays?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2025 ==

People seem to forget that there are 30 5 car 707s and 90 701s (60 of which are 10 cars, 30 5 car). So the 707s are nowhere near enough to achieve fleet replacement.
As for building more, the Desiro City range is now out of production and has been for years, so restarting that would come with considerable cost.
And even then, it would take time for them to all be built....
Reasonably speaking therefore, this will never happen and I'm not sure why people continue to talk about it on here like it's some viable solution

Who cares, the 707s were the best trains we ever had

 

[TheHSRailFan]

Any updates at all on training resuming yet? Must be some big dispute if it’s being dragged on this long..

Certainly not guards. My friend who's recently became a Metro Guard just received his email the past few days that he will be trained on the 701s soon.

 

[TEW]

I would surmise from the discussion on here thus far:

- There is a debate about the method of working for guards when trains are crush loaded
- Until this is resolved, the training materials cannot be finalised
- Until the training materials are finalised, training cannot resume

The delay is nothing to do with how the trains are worked, or the training package. Guard's training has continued, but driver's has not. You might be able to work out from that where the issues lie.

The issue of guard's working busy trains has been agreed. The solution isn't perfect, but it's the best that's possible. There was rugby on at Twickenham today, there were several 701s running through there, and they weren't all having stops skipped left, right and centre.

 

[norbitonflyer]

How can they run it if Wimbledon has been closed for engineering works for the past few Sundays?

Don't I know it! It's cost me my no-claims bonus. (Son had to use the car to go into London, and brought it back with a big dent in the door!)

 

[Geogregor]

I don't want to derail the thread but can someone give me short logical explanation why SWR has such particular problem with the whole door opening/closing saga? Thameslink or Southeastern operate busy services with driver only, for years now, and don't have much issue with that. What makes SWR different?

 

[Lockwood]

I think you can have a one word answer? "Politics"

 

[I_am_Nobody]

I think you can have a one word answer? "Politics"

Wrong.
It’s because the network hasn’t been built in a way to allow it to easily happen safely, and requires a lot of investment to bring it up to that standard. Politics has nothing to do with it, it’s all about safety.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

It’s because the network hasn’t been built in a way to allow it to easily happen safely

In other words it's a Victorian infrastructure, when even a basic still camera was in its infancy let alone todays despatch monitors etc. Before anyone shouts, I have it from a very close and trusted person who is still involved (unlike me) that there are still locations (Down Windsor road as an example) where low evening sun in the West (as an example) was until recently still causing problems for despatch at certain places when combined with todays technology of monitors etc. Granted it wouldn't have/wasn't a problem in days past (slam door days) as the passengers were in effect responsible for their own actions, but things have changed, so it could be said that todays safety standards, as laudable as they are, are driven in part by politics of the small 'p' variety (as in no one seemingly wants to take responsibility for their own actions these days and wants to sue everyone as soon as they twist an ankle) have all combined to make the operation of the railway far more complex than it once was? We live in a nanny state in many ways and I do not apologise for saying so!

 

[Lockwood]

I was oversimplifying, but the decision to try and introduce a different method of working, trying to find a safe way of working within the confines introduced by the stock, and all of the decisions along the way there have political elements - governmental, company, union, staff.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I don't disagree, too many meddlers from on top. It was becoming a problem (for me and some of my peers, including those colleagues from both back room grades and ASLEF as an example) when many of same decided it was time for something new. Individually one can only take so much interference, as well intentioned as the origins of same may have been, and that is perhaps part of the reason the industry has in recent times lost a good deal of its experience. I don't know?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Today marks a whole year since 701028 was last used in passenger service.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Today marks a whole year since 701028 was last used in passenger service.

There is a de-cluttering rule coming into my mind !.
Still I am sure it will be of use one day....

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I do wonder if SWR will pull the track of removing a diagram to add a new one in order to make it look like they're expanding the rollout and following their schedule, due to the lack of driver training which doesn't seem to be looking like restarting anytime soon

 

[Lockwood]

"The 701" rollout, as opposed to The "701 rollout"?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Wrong.
It’s because the network hasn’t been built in a way to allow it to easily happen safely, and requires a lot of investment to bring it up to that standard. Politics has nothing to do with it, it’s all about safety.

No more than it did on the Midland 40 years ago or the South Eastern, South Central or Greater Anglia 30-35 years ago they all faced that challenge and succesful overcame it and their operations have proven to be reliable and safe. We have the whole of TfL run DOO for decades as well they face the same challenges. SWR is a fiasco despite the unions agreeing to support changes and several years to implement the necessary works at stations. Until we have new leadership and rehabilitated working relationships with the staff can't see things moving forward.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Until the DfT are taken out of the decision making process with the 701 “introduction”, no management is going to be able to reset working relationships. It has been a litany of interference, change of tack, interference, and repeat.

If I was a cynic, when they take over they change a director or two, make a few minor changes to the plan and then claim it as a major change but they will still be calling the shots. The only difference is that, not having to pay fees, there might be a bit more money to do things.

 

[73128]

Did you read what I wrote? Are you suggesting that no one gets off a down train at Bracknell or Wokingham? Seems unlikely. I did ask what was the first station up from Ascot with a short platform. I doubt anyone would notice if a train skipped Longcross. I am amazed that SWR thinks it is worth stopping there twice an hour. It used to be peak time only.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2025 ==


Other examples include class 231 and 756. They have to be dispatched from passengers doors. The rear cab is not an option. Those trains are definitely crushed loaded after a Rugby match in Cardiff.

Lot of new houses near Longcross and some commercial premises. when I have alighted there recently to take pictures and test the Pertis machine there have been others (normal passengers) too..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2025 ==

Let’s not go that far

the SUBs and EPBs were fine and dwell times a lot less, making journeys quicker. New Malden to Waterloo was 20 minutes (less on a semi-fast Shepperton) compared with rather more today...

 

[class701]

How about having no doors. Seems to work in India.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about having no doors. Seems to work in India.

There are doors, they just don't close them. They are occasionally closed in the event of seriously inclement weather.

 

[Geogregor]

Wrong.
It’s because the network hasn’t been built in a way to allow it to easily happen safely, and requires a lot of investment to bring it up to that standard. Politics has nothing to do with it, it’s all about safety.

How does network in SW London differs from the rest of south or southeast London? It was build largely in the same era. If other areas could modernize working practices it should be possible in SWR area too. I mean physically and technologically possible, politics might be another matter...

It looks like class 701 introduction will be missed opportunity in that regard. But then the whole process is such debacle it is hardly surprising...

At this stage folks will be desperate to see at least a few more of them in service this year...