Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Goldfish62]

I’ll refer you to what I pointed out to you last time you made this comment upthread(!):





If they couldn’t run a full service during the ASLEF overtime ban, they’re clearly hardly over burdened with drivers.

The odd thing there is that it varied - sometimes there was a thinned out service, next overtime ban there was a full service, then next day of action back to a thinned out service, and so on.

On the issue of whether they are taking drivers off rostered shifts for 701 training resulting in cancellations, SWT cancelled a number of services in order to speed up the late-running 458/5 conversion. However, they were upfront about this, stating the reason, but due to resultant chronic overcrowding they very quickly had to reverse the decision.

 

[Nogoohwell]

Dont forget COVID impacted new driver training at all TOCs as you could not have two people in a cab.
Nearly every TOC is struggling to catch up on driver recruitment and training. Its just been very popular to pass the blame on to someone for political purposes.

I dont know how long it takes to train a fresh recruit these days, but this not something that you can wave a wand at and fix in a couple of years.

 

[43066]

I dont know how long it takes to train a fresh recruit these days, but this not something that you can wave a wand at and fix in a couple of years.

A year or more at most operators. Then they have to manage the ongoing competence cycle, conduct more regular assessments for new drivers etc. All of this takes up a lot of time and is separate from training hundreds of existing drivers on a new fleet.

Once trained, if they don’t drive them within (say) six months, it may be that they then require retraining. Hopefully enough will be running to enable everyone trained to keep current until full roll out is achieved.

 

[43096]

Dont forget COVID impacted new driver training at all TOCs as you could not have two people in a cab.
Nearly every TOC is struggling to catch up on driver recruitment and training. Its just been very popular to pass the blame on to someone for political purposes.

We are now three years on from Covid. Using it as an excuse for not catching up on training is truly pathetic - if they haven’t caught up now then they never will if that is really the case. It should be called out for what it is: rank incompetence.

 

[Goldfish62]

Dont forget COVID impacted new driver training at all TOCs as you could not have two people in a cab.
Nearly every TOC is struggling to catch up on driver recruitment and training. Its just been very popular to pass the blame on to someone for political purposes.

Some TOCs managed training during Covid a lot better than others so that's not an excuse, but anyway that's going well off-topic.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

In relation to the possibility of an increase of cancellations due to training: No gain without pain, as they say.

 

[swr444]

In relation to the possibility of an increase of cancellations due to training: No gain without pain, as they say.

not helped by a shortage of drivers currently at Farnham depot, they cover a few reading diagrams so could be another possibility

 

[43066]

Some TOCs managed training during Covid a lot better than others so that's not an excuse, but anyway that's going well off-topic.

Although, whatever we think of how Covid was responded to (and I personally was against almost all of the measures), it has had a big impact on training, so we are where we are.

 

[SWT_USER]

I suppose the pertinent question is what takes priority; 701 training or running the day to day service. My expectation would be to see training on 701s cancelled to release drivers back to cover their turns, but of course this isn’t a particularly “normal” situation and there may be other pressures being applied - or there might not be, of course!

I can see merit in both sides of this but I think I disagree on this one. SWR have let things get so bad that the priority now has to be ramping up the 701 introduction as quickly as possible - that's the only way to relieve the issues and I would acceot some short term pain in the form of cancellations if it allowed for a quicker 701 introduction (ideally cancellations in the middle of the day rather than in the peaks though...)

This assumes that there are enough units ready to enter service, which I understand from reading this thread may not be the case.

 

[Ethano92]

First journey on a 701 last week and from a passenger point of view they are great. The comments made about window alignment and voice of the PIS is far from something most passengers care about, especially with the nature of services they operate. The only criticism I have is the serious under-utilisation of the screens above the doors, especially when the route map next to them is so complicated - a moving route diagram wouldn’t go amiss.

I’m not saying I necessarily noticed a difference in overall dwell time but the doors definitely were definitely released at stations a lot faster than the 455s I’ve been on recently.

Being on an off peak service the doorways felt sparse with at least one row of seats missing to make way for standing room but I’m sure this will be very appreciated on peak time services.

 

[Goldfish62]

not helped by a shortage of drivers currently at Farnham depot, they cover a few reading diagrams so could be another possibility

Thanks.

 

[Nogoohwell]

Some TOCs managed training during Covid a lot better than others so that's not an excuse, but anyway that's going well off-topic.

Also the costs for recruiting more drivers would have had to be signed off by DfT and SWT passenger numbers were slower to recover than other areas. Maybe fewer drivers were planned for?

I have no evidence to support this but you can imagine the discussions going on.

 

[Elorith]

Is it plausible that the appetite for overtime and rest day working has waned over recent weeks following the pay offer? Combined with an uptick in retirements and you can see how that would have effect on coverage of the train service.

 

[Goldfish62]

Is it plausible that the appetite for overtime and rest day working has waned over recent weeks following the pay offer? Combined with an uptick in retirements and you can see how that would have effect on coverage of the train service.

I was thinking that. Especially as there's a considerable amount of back-pay due.

 

[43066]

Is it plausible that the appetite for overtime and rest day working has waned over recent weeks following the pay offer? Combined with an uptick in retirements and you can see how that would have effect on coverage of the train service.

I’m sure that will be part of it, yes.

 

[Elorith]

The problems at Avanti (and possibly other operators as well) largely came about because they were heavily reliant on rest day work to cover the service and interest amongst drivers in working rest days reduced substantially during the summer of 2022. The long-term business strategy became increasing driver establishment numbers to end such a reliance. It's only 2 years later that the situation has begun to stabilise somewhat, although for how long it's not clear. If SWR have "missed the boat" so to speak on a similar problem, passengers will be suffering for a long time.

 

[Bigfoot]

Is it plausible that the appetite for overtime and rest day working has waned over recent weeks following the pay offer? Combined with an uptick in retirements and you can see how that would have effect on coverage of the train service.

I was thinking that. Especially as there's a considerable amount of back-pay due.

I’m sure that will be part of it, yes.

There is still lots of Freeday working and drivers being asked to vary their hours significantly from their roster to cover work.

Trains might not be shown as cancelled some days but there is still a fairly significant reliance on the relationship between the resource managers and crew to get work covered, without that there would be even more cancellations.

Things are planned later in the day for the following day usually using up most of the slack in the crews which leaves little to no flexibility if something happens on the following day.

 

[Goldfish62]

There is still lots of Freeday working and drivers being asked to vary their hours significantly from their roster to cover work.

Trains might not be shown as cancelled some days but there is still a fairly significant reliance on the relationship between the resource managers and crew to get work covered, without that there would be even more cancellations.

Things are planned later in the day for the following day usually using up most of the slack in the crews which leaves little to no flexibility if something happens on the following day.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Stephen42]

The shortage is all very confusing to me because it appears that SWR are only running 70-80% of the trains of 5 years ago, (not sure of exact percentage), so unless about a quarter of their drivers have retired or left, and none of these have been replaced, it is not clear why they are allegedly so short of drivers now.

I realise that the practical part is limited by number of driver trainers, but the theory/classroom part of the training is more governed by size of lecture hall and how many staff are available to be booked on the course.

It sort of feels to me that the excuse of lack of drivers is covering up something, because combined with the heavily thinned out service suggests it's not 100% of the picture,

In addition to the points others have raised, your percentage seems on the low side. Passenger train km was 86% of 5 years ago for the last quarter, looking at my copies of schedule extracts scheduled trains including empty stock movements at 88% mid week of the May 2020 timetable (before it got altered).

With that sort of reduction, a few percent drop in efficiency then add a small drop in drivers and/or availability plus a possible training backlog then it mostly evaporates. With the 701 training focused on certain depots/links the work they cover would be disproportionately impacted too compared to overall driver pool.

Today there were 8 different 701s out on the network, 036/037/039 in passenger service as they swapped over, 031 on station test run and 017/025/028/042 on the driver testing loops.

 

[swtrains]

031 on station test run

5T91 saw testing today from Waterloo - Guildford and back, via Epsom, 5T92 saw testing from Waterloo - Clapham Yard, in between it went to Guildford via Epsom, and then back to Clapham via Cobham and Stoke, although there was no station testing on that line.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q84734/2024-10-07/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q84733/2024-10-07/detailed

 

[norbitonflyer]

701043 on the Shepperton this morning - its first run in public service since July. Also unusual because the unit working the monring Shepperton service has so far been the one that ran the services the previous evening, stabling overnight at Strawberry Hill. It seems from RTT that the previous evening's diagram was cut short at Wimbledon

 

[swtrains]

Station testing today:
5T95 - Clapham Yard - Waterloo, in between it will run to Hampton Court and back.
5T96 - Waterloo - Waterloo, in between it will run to Hampton Court and back.
5T97 - Waterloo - Clapham Yard, in between it will run to Dorking and back. Have they ever been there before?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q84983/2024-10-08/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q84982/2024-10-08/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q84981/2024-10-08/detailed

 

[Sam 76]

The odd thing there is that it varied - sometimes there was a thinned out service, next overtime ban there was a full service, then next day of action back to a thinned out service, and so on.

On the issue of whether they are taking drivers off rostered shifts for 701 training resulting in cancellations, SWT cancelled a number of services in order to speed up the late-running 458/5 conversion. However, they were upfront about this, stating the reason, but due to resultant chronic overcrowding they very quickly had to reverse the decision.

Merseyrail also did this with the introduction of the 777s. Cancelled services in advance and stated the reason as driver training for the new units.

If this is to continue SWR would be wise to do the same and double up units before or after to relieve overcrowding

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Cancelled services in advance and stated the reason as driver training for the new units.

Haha, SWR would never tell their passengers the direct truth....

 

[43066]

There is still lots of Freeday working and drivers being asked to vary their hours significantly from their roster to cover work.

Trains might not be shown as cancelled some days but there is still a fairly significant reliance on the relationship between the resource managers and crew to get work covered, without that there would be even more cancellations.

Things are planned later in the day for the following day usually using up most of the slack in the crews which leaves little to no flexibility if something happens on the following day.

Suspect the next three months will be interesting for overtime availability as (if it’s the same as my TOC) it’ll potentially be three large pay checks; basic salary back pay, overtime back pay, then holiday uplift in December - plus of course the basic salary uplift will appear in peoples’ pay from this month onwards.

 

[Elorith]

If this is to continue SWR would be wise to do the same and double up units before or after to relieve overcrowding

Not possible on the suburban routes unless the set is booked as a single unit.

 

[SWT_USER]

Not possible on the suburban routes unless the set is booked as a single unit.

There are some booked single units now in to Waterloo (which is a ridiculous situation), although I doubt the frequent cancellations make doubling up any easier.

Is there a date for the next all day 701 diagram to be introduced?

 

[Notchapple]

701503 &. 701504 is 5Q50 from Eastleigh to London Waterloo

 

[norbitonflyer]

701043 on the Shepperton this morning - its first run in public service since July. Also unusual because the unit working the monring Shepperton service has so far been the one that ran the services the previous evening, stabling overnight at Strawberry Hill. It seems from RTT that the previous evening's diagram was cut short at Wimbledon

Same thing happened last night/ this morning. Evening service cut short at Wimbledon and another unit took on the diagram this morning, running ECS Wimbledon (instead of Strawberry Hill) to Waterloo to enter service

 

[Snow1964]

Dont forget COVID impacted new driver training at all TOCs as you could not have two people in a cab.
Nearly every TOC is struggling to catch up on driver recruitment and training. Its just been very popular to pass the blame on to someone for political purposes.

I think using a covid excuse 3 years after restrictions ended is rather pathetic.

Basically saying in 1000+ days have failed to organise ourselves to catch up and clear the backlog.