Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Goldfish62]

About a month ago I had a 701 on a late Windsor following a 455 on a late Reading. Despite stopping at Ashford, Whitton and Putney we still kept catching the 455!

It irks me greatly they've run the train earlier, so you sit at Feltham waiting time, then have to wait for the Weybridge which now conflicts at Feltham Jn as they pushed it back two minutes, destroying what was left of the connection at Weybridge...

And the down Weybridge regularly runs late, clogging everything up.

 

[GW43125]

And the down Weybridge regularly runs late, clogging everything up.

If only there were a low-dwell metro-spec unit we could use to sort this out... ah hang on

A 707 could be 5' late at Barnes and right time at Staines when I used to use them on a regular basis.

 

[swr444]

And the down Weybridge regularly runs late, clogging everything up.

The new “state of the art signalling” likes to hold the up reading whilst the late down Weybridge crosses over about 5+ late. even worse when the down Windsor is late and the up Reading sits there when it could have easily gone, just for the signalling ARS to set the route for the down Weybridge!

 

[43096]

Technically, the improved acceleration at least according to my calculations could provide APPROX up to 25% reduced journey times compared to a 455, 17% compared to a 458, and 8% compared to a 450. This is based on comparing how long it takes each unit to reach 40mph. At higher speeds the gap may be larger or smaller, although I'd assume the former. This is also assuming all units listed are at peak performance.
So for example if we were to look at a 1 min and 30 second journey compared to a 455 you'd be saving about 30 seconds.

You need to factor the 450s glacial door cycle times into your calculation. In my experience a 458 will absolutely whip a 450 on the overall journey times. This is borne out by SWT's preference - for performance reasons - to use a 458 pair on main suburban turns over a 450 when thyey were short of 455s.

 

[Goldfish62]

You need to factor the 450s glacial door cycle times into your calculation. In my experience a 458 will absolutely whip a 450 on the overall journey times. This is borne out by SWT's preference - for performance reasons - to use a 458 pair on main suburban turns over a 450 when thyey were short of 455s.

Agreed. Was always my experience on Reading services despite the relatively sluggish acceleration of the 458s.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I doubt it, the timetables are pretty tight already

Pre-covid, the Guildford via Cobham stoppers used to be sub-60 min end-to-end. Nowadays they take more than 60 min.

 

[Snow1964]

Pre-covid, the Guildford via Cobham stoppers used to be sub-60 min end-to-end. Nowadays they take more than 60 min.

Just checked a 1947 Southern timetable and a 1970s timetable and it was 49 minutes, (Waterloo, Wimbledon, Surbiton, then all stations), including in busy evening peak hour.

Just goes to show how slow some modern timetables are.

 

[swr444]

Pre-covid, the Guildford via Cobham stoppers used to be sub-60 min end-to-end. Nowadays they take more than 60 min.

I think they added loads of padding due to the down Epsom service clashing with the down cobham as they now leave at xx54 instead of the old xx09/39, meaning that the cobham has to wait for the Epsom service to leave effingham first

 

[DMckduck]

Just checked a 1947 Southern timetable and a 1970s timetable and it was 49 minutes, (Waterloo, Wimbledon, Surbiton, then all stations), including in busy evening peak hour.

Just goes to show how slow some modern timetables are.

Do you have the passenger loadings to go with the 1947 and 1970 timetable? How many people were actually using the railway.

Everyone wants quicker journey times but like a previous poster said, any savings made usually disappear between barnes and Waterloo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2024 ==

Which was down to two things: the door cycle times on the Desiros and SWR’s sloppy operating, a WorstGroup import from GWR.

The first is obviously resolved with the 701s. Will the second be sorted by removing the operator?

I’d point out that SWR promised faster journeys with the 701s, not a further slowdown. Another promise broken. Is there anything that this shower have actually delivered as promised?

Also have to mention the addition of Longcross into the WTT without additional time being offered in either direction.

 

[TEW]

I think they added loads of padding due to the down Epsom service clashing with the down cobham as they now leave at xx54 instead of the old xx09/39, meaning that the cobham has to wait for the Epsom service to leave effingham first

It's also platforming at Guildford. The down Cobham needs to wait for the up Cobham to leave Guildford, the down services usually get held at the home signal, even with the pathing allowance at Guildford.

The last service of the night in the down direction is timetabled to take 58 minutes and has no trouble achieving it.

Conversely the down Epsom services are timetabled at 68 minutes which is the tightest they have been in a while and can only just keep to time usually.

 

[swr444]

It's also platforming at Guildford. The down Cobham needs to wait for the up Cobham to leave Guildford, the down services usually get held at the home signal, even with the pathing allowance at Guildford.

The last service of the night in the down direction is timetabled to take 58 minutes and has no trouble achieving it.

Conversely the down Epsom services are timetabled at 68 minutes which is the tightest they have been in a while and can only just keep to time usually.

This is true, the 2G/D used to interwork stock pre Covid.


The down Epsom timetable is a bit ridiculous and the Guildford via Epsom nearly always is delayed by the down Horsham Southern service, well it seems to be whenever I’m working it!

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

The down Epsom timetable is a bit ridiculous and the Guildford via Epsom nearly always is delayed by the down Horsham Southern service, well it seems to be whenever I’m working it!

I tend to find it's the ridiculous two minutes given to get from Stoneleigh to Ewell West that pretty much always puts you behind schedule until at least Bookham.

It's practically impossible to keep to time heading along that section unless you've got a particularly confident or heavy-handed driver and an incredibly quiet train.

I do agree with the previous comments that the Cobham services are excessively over-timed.

 

[Mike_L_Surrey]

Just checked a 1947 Southern timetable and a 1970s timetable and it was 49 minutes, (Waterloo, Wimbledon, Surbiton, then all stations), including in busy evening peak hour.

Just goes to show how slow some modern timetables are.

I’ve read that there were 3 trains a hour on New Guildford Line up to 1960’s.

That plus a 49-minute service would have given a great service for most commuters .

I assume this was changed to provide more paths for non-suburban trains.

 

[DelW]

Pre-covid, the Guildford via Cobham stoppers used to be sub-60 min end-to-end. Nowadays they take more than 60 min.

Just checked a 1947 Southern timetable and a 1970s timetable and it was 49 minutes, (Waterloo, Wimbledon, Surbiton, then all stations), including in busy evening peak hour.

Just goes to show how slow some modern timetables are.

Possibly dwell times are a partial cause as well, especially if the timetable is based on use of 450s. In the days of the slammers, most of the passengers would have been off the train and halfway down the station access road by the time the Desiro doors have started to open. Multiply that delay by the number of stations on the New Line and it must make several minutes.

Even if the 701 doors are quicker, not much can be done in the way of improvement if 450s may still turn up on those services.

 

[Peter Sarf]

We all know the railways are getting cluttered with more and more customers !. We also know station dwell times are getting longer. The 701s have better performance but the pathing is still a challenge. So, I wonder, as far as timetable conflicts go is it time SWR had some more flying junctions ?. After all it was a solution in the past.

Quote this in a new thread if its better.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

not much can be done in the way of improvement if 450s may still turn up on those services.

Well, the thing about this programme is that the 701s will replace all suburban/metro services, so in many areas they won't have to interact with any other trains like 450s are you mention.
This was advertised as a benefit as it would make timetabling easier/more efficient thanks to predictable/consistent fast acceleration/braking and dwell times, compared to the current mix up of trains we have at the moment.

 

[class701]

Will the new 701 introduce any new fast services on the Epsom - WCP - WIM - Waterloo? SWR seem to manage a few when they are running late. Why not bring in a few on purpose? An hourly fast service into Waterloo would be great, missing out all the chuff.

 

[shakermaker_86]

Will the new 701 introduce any new fast services on the Epsom - WCP - WIM - Waterloo? SWR seem to manage a few when they are running late. Why not bring in a few on purpose? An hourly fast service into Waterloo would be great, missing out all the chuff.

The two evening peak services to Guildford via Bookham (leaving Waterloo at 5:39 and 6:09) are currently semi fast services, skipping Earlsfield, Raynes Park and Motspur Park. Making this limited stop service more regular as you mentioned, particularly in the morning peak would be welcome, and make the journey more comparable time wise to the route via Cobham which runs fast between Surbiton - Wimbledon.

 

[Goldfish62]

The new “state of the art signalling” likes to hold the up reading whilst the late down Weybridge crosses over about 5+ late. even worse when the down Windsor is late and the up Reading sits there when it could have easily gone, just for the signalling ARS to set the route for the down Weybridge!

I have indeed noticed this as a passenger.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The new “state of the art signalling” likes to hold the up reading whilst the late down Weybridge crosses over about 5+ late. even worse when the down Windsor is late and the up Reading sits there when it could have easily gone, just for the signalling ARS to set the route for the down Weybridge!

We were promised ETCS on the mainline by 2018. Never amounted to anything.

 

[boiledbeans2]

The Guildford via Cobham both have a lot of slack in the country stations as well as London stations, take this for example:

Realtime Trains | 1334 Guildford to London Waterloo | 03/09/2024

Real-time train running information for 1334 departure from Guildford to London Waterloo on 03/09/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

At stations such as Effingham Junction, Cobham, Oxshott, there's 1 min of dwell time, which is more than sufficient (As a comparison, Clapham Junction also has 1 min dwell time). The Surbiton to Wimbledon section is pathed at 9 min, yet the train in RTT above did it in 6 mins.

 

[swr444]

The Guildford via Cobham both have a lot of slack in the country stations as well as London stations, take this for example:

Realtime Trains | 1334 Guildford to London Waterloo | 03/09/2024

Real-time train running information for 1334 departure from Guildford to London Waterloo on 03/09/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

At stations such as Effingham Junction, Cobham, Oxshott, there's 1 min of dwell time, which is more than sufficient (As a comparison, Clapham Junction also has 1 min dwell time). The Surbiton to Wimbledon section is pathed at 9 min, yet the train in RTT above did it in 6 mins.

Most of the time the up Hampton court is delayed at surbiton due to the up Woking being late, which in turn delays the up shepperton at new Malden (unless this is already late which is usually is) meaning the up cobham is following all these late trains into wimbledon, hence the slack in the TT

 

[TEW]

The Guildford via Cobham both have a lot of slack in the country stations as well as London stations, take this for example:

Realtime Trains | 1334 Guildford to London Waterloo | 03/09/2024

Real-time train running information for 1334 departure from Guildford to London Waterloo on 03/09/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

At stations such as Effingham Junction, Cobham, Oxshott, there's 1 min of dwell time, which is more than sufficient (As a comparison, Clapham Junction also has 1 min dwell time). The Surbiton to Wimbledon section is pathed at 9 min, yet the train in RTT above did it in 6 mins.

Until a few years ago they left Guildford at xx37. They have to leave a few minutes earlier now though to allow the down service to arrive at Guildford. Between Surbiton and Wimbledon there is pathing time as they are booked to catch the up Shepperton service.

 

[Invincible]

We were promised ETCS on the mainline by 2018. Never amounted to anything.

From a 2022 article still a future upgrade to the now complete 6 phases for the Feltham Area Signalling Centre

Establishing a secure connection ...

(paywalled, but can see the detailed article)
"although conventional colour lights are being installed, the technology would support a switch to European Train Control System at a later date"
Also notice, yet to happen.
"Other such schemes include changes to signal overlaps to deliver journey time improvements and the provision of ‘Off’ indicators in the former International platforms at Waterloo in preparation for the introduction of South Western Railway’s new Class 701 EMUs."

 

[swtrains]

Does anyone know what 042 will be doing at Waterloo today? On RTT there is no testing happening today for 701s.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L63590/2024-09-04/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[TEW]

That will be for training.

 

[Goldfish62]

Also notice, yet to happen.
"Other such schemes include changes to signal overlaps to deliver journey time improvements and the provision of ‘Off’ indicators in the former International platforms at Waterloo in preparation for the introduction of South Western Railway’s new Class 701 EMUs."

Well, there are certainly additional signalling sections that have been introduced under the resignalling scheme and unless I'm imagining it there are "Off" indicators at P20-24. How else are the guard and platform staff supposed to see that the signal has been cleared on the significant curve of the platforms?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Any updates on the rate of training? How many courses can run at the same time, etc. I'm also interested on if these run Monday-Friday as apparently trainers usually aren't on during the weekends

 

[swtrains]

One question regarding the testing of the trains: why are they only being tested on the Hounslow Loop? Presumably this is for fault-free testing + putting some miles on them, but since the 458/4s are already operating on that line, why would they do it there?

Since we don't know where they are planning to introduce the next diagrams, one can only assume this is just for the Windsor side, although the odd test trip to Hampton Court and Shepperton + Kingston Loop this week are promising signs for broader deployment soon, although we can't get our hopes up of course!

With the 707s leaving tomorrow, and the amount of shortened formations appearing, what with needing repairs, and sending off /5s for refurb, they surely have to introduce them on these lines soon, right?

 

[swr444]

One question regarding the testing of the trains: why are they only being tested on the Hounslow Loop? Presumably this is for fault-free testing + putting some miles on them, but since the 458/4s are already operating on that line, why would they do it there?

Since we don't know where they are planning to introduce the next diagrams, one can only assume this is just for the Windsor side, although the odd test trip to Hampton Court and Shepperton + Kingston Loop this week are promising signs for broader deployment soon, although we can't get our hopes up of course!

With the 707s leaving tomorrow, and the amount of shortened formations appearing, what with needing repairs, and sending off /5s for refurb, they surely have to introduce them on these lines soon, right?

they are predominantly using the paths of the hounslow loop services which don't run in the off peak, which makes most sense.