Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[SWT_USER]

To my knowledge, any train crew that signs Windsor will also sign Weybridge via Hounslow. However, drivers that do these routes don't necessarily also sign Reading. Also various stabling points along the Windsor side may also not be part of a driver's route knowledge...

Thanks - presumably that means not all sign Feltham depot or Staines sidings etc which complicates things at the start/ end of service - as expected not that simple!

 

[Snow1964]

What routes do drivers who cover Windsor diagrams typically sign? Or does it vary hugely?

Just wondering, for example, if there are enough drivers for Windsor trained on 701's would that make it easier to introduce them on Weybridge via Hounslow services too because the same drivers sign all routes on the Windsor side? I am guessing it won't be that simple..

Generally would also sign Hounslow loop, Weybridge via Virginia Water, Shepperton via Richmond and Kingston loop. Many will sign other routes too.

Basically anywhere that 455s operate from higher number platforms at Waterloo. For years tended to avoid driver changes in high peak at Waterloo and a train in from say Windsor might form a Shepperton or Hounslow service on its return. This was especially true before the ex Eurostar platforms were used and platform dwell times at Waterloo were critical.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Well I think it's safe to say it'll be a while until we see any movement... again....

 

[Bigfoot]

You've misunderstood me.

The comments I was responding to were in relation to there only being 6-8 units currently available. I pointed out that the whole of the Windsor service requires just 5 units. I made no mention of crewing, which by the way, I fully understand the logistics of as you've outlined.

Until availablity and crew availablity go hand in hand for introduction of a service.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well I think it's safe to say it'll be a while until we see any movement... again....

What's happened now?!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

Until availablity and crew availablity go hand in hand for introduction of a service.

As you stated previously and which I'll repeat that I fully understand.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

What's happened now?!

Nothing, just making a comment based on what's being discussed in the thread. It's clearly a lot of roadblocks still to get over, with the risk of refreshers having to happen too

 

[Goldfish62]

Nothing, just making a comment based on what's being discussed in the thread. It's clearly a lot of roadblocks still to get over, with the risk of refreshers having to happen too

That's assuming everything said on this thread is with the full knowledge of what's actually happening.

 

[Stephen42]

Nothing, just making a comment based on what's being discussed in the thread. It's clearly a lot of roadblocks still to get over, with the risk of refreshers having to happen too

Most of the above are standard to all rollouts. It is very early days in the class 701 rollout and those trained on them recently won't have signed them for a full month yet.

This one has a higher risk that units won't be cleared for passenger services in time if they have picked up issues while stored or any other works are required. The low number currently cleared for passenger service could plausibly be from limited stabling space on patch coupled with rotation between locations. There's no point clearing one, sending to Long Marston or wherever and having to repeat the process once it comes back. Once diagrams start moving over to 701 operation, space will be opened up for stored units to move in and have any work necessary to be cleared for passenger service ready to support further increase in diagrams.

I wouldn't worry about anything on this thread yet, wait a couple of months and it should be clearer how things are progressing.

 

[Lockwood]

Very early days?

Surely that depends on your point of view. Either a few months from when something actually happened, or several years from when they said they would.

 

[wickham]

Just for info, there were 9 lots of 701s in Clapham Yard yesterday afternoon 29.08.24:
701042, 043, 031, 017, 046, 025, 044, 037, 529 (coupled to another -presumably 528):
At least two more were glimsped inside the cleaning shed at Wimbledon Park with another down the District line side of the shed (unable to identify from passing train).
Are there still some at Farnham ? There are now a fair number of 701s sitting "on the juice" in the London area - just waiting for the off..........

 

[traji00]

Are there still some at Farnham ? There are now a fair number of 701s sitting "on the juice" in the London area - just waiting for the off..........

Last time I passed by (about a week ago), there were 4 units parked up

 

[Peter Sarf]

Just for info, there were 9 lots of 701s in Clapham Yard yesterday afternoon 29.08.24:
701042, 043, 031, 017, 046, 025, 044, 037, 529 (coupled to another -presumably 528):
At least two more were glimsped inside the cleaning shed at Wimbledon Park with another down the District line side of the shed (unable to identify from passing train).
Are there still some at Farnham ? There are now a fair number of 701s sitting "on the juice" in the London area - just waiting for the off..........

How about Feltham ?. Was that created just for 701s so currently empty ready to keep more 701s on the juice - so warm storage available there.

 

[swr444]

How about Feltham ?. Was that created just for 701s so currently empty ready to keep more 701s on the juice - so warm storage available there.

450s and 458s are stored there overnight so there are only a couple of roads free currently

 

[DMckduck]

But not simply, 5 units come from different depots, having enough crews trained to cover the whole of every diagram every day requires a significant number of crew trained on the stock. Also it is frowned upon and not good practice to have the same crews working the same diagrams day in day out.

If you say there are 30 trips to and from Windsor from Waterloo per day (half hourly for 15 hours):

Each driver doing 2 return trips (not uncommon in a diagram but most will do 1 and then other work along side that). I'm sure there are rules of dco and non dco mixed diagrams that I can't recall so we will gloss over that.

That is 15 drivers. working an average of a 4 day week you now need 30 to guarantee cover every day (Monday to Saturday) providing that their roster pattern line up perfectly. Probably more like 40-50 to cover for holiday, other workplace training, sickness etc.

Now factor in the positioning moves from depots to starting station and that there are more than 30 trips.

I haven't even mentioned guards.

It's so much further away from a simple oh it's only 5 units.

It's not been fully made clear yet, but it's looking like any mix of DCO to traditional work requires a break in between.

If staffing levels allow, we may see quite a few changes in the December timetable, or a lot more STP diagrams to get these into service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2024 ==

What routes do drivers who cover Windsor diagrams typically sign? Or does it vary hugely?

Just wondering, for example, if there are enough drivers for Windsor trained on 701's would that make it easier to introduce them on Weybridge via Hounslow services too because the same drivers sign all routes on the Windsor side? I am guessing it won't be that simple..

I suspect Weybridge via Hounslow is low on the priority with the 458/4s and it being a diversionary route for basing crew.

I don't think basing are set to sign the 701s either

 

[Stephen42]

It's not been fully made clear yet, but it's looking like any mix of DCO to traditional work requires a break in between.

If staffing levels allow, we may see quite a few changes in the December timetable, or a lot more STP diagrams to get these into service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2024 ==


I suspect Weybridge via Hounslow is low on the priority with the 458/4s and it being a diversionary route for basing crew.

I don't think basing are set to sign the 701s either

Is there a reason why a break would be required between the two types of working? Southeastern had drivers switching between DOO and guard operation on changing ends driving the same unit. Sounds like would make the rollout a lot more challenging with that restriction added in.

Agree that Weybridge looks more complex than some of the others. Shepperton and Kingston loop look only to be covered by those signing Windsor which might be easier assuming the training is currently focused on depots signing Windsor.

 

[Elorith]

Is there a reason why a break would be required between the two types of working? Southeastern had drivers switching between DOO and guard operation on changing ends driving the same unit. Sounds like would make the rollout a lot more challenging with that restriction added in.

Agree that Weybridge looks more complex than some of the others. Shepperton and Kingston loop look only to be covered by those signing Windsor which might be easier assuming the training is currently focused on depots signing Windsor.

I would imagine certain stations are still proving problematic to sign off.

 

[DMckduck]

Is there a reason why a break would be required between the two types of working? Southeastern had drivers switching between DOO and guard operation on changing ends driving the same unit. Sounds like would make the rollout a lot more challenging with that restriction added in.

Agree that Weybridge looks more complex than some of the others. Shepperton and Kingston loop look only to be covered by those signing Windsor which might be easier assuming the training is currently focused on depots signing Windsor.

Think it's just because of how unpredictable and all over the place the current DCO setup is. It may and probably will change as it progresses? At first there was talk of diagrams being 701 specific and nothing else like the current soft launch agreement which is worse.

Feltham, Staines and Waterloo are being prioritised for both Drivers and Guards currently (no guards at feltham of course)

 

[swr444]

Think it's just because of how unpredictable and all over the place the current DCO setup is. It may and probably will change as it progresses? At first there was talk of diagrams being 701 specific and nothing else like the current soft launch agreement which is worse.

Feltham, Staines and Waterloo are being prioritised for both Drivers and Guards currently (no guards at feltham of course)

makes the most sense, as the last thing they'll need is a 701 stranded at Staines with no replacement driver.

 

[Lewis66655]

Does anyone know if journey times will be improved due to better acceleration of class 701s?

 

[swr444]

Does anyone know if journey times will be improved due to better acceleration of class 701s?

I doubt it, the timetables are pretty tight already

 

[Goldfish62]

I doubt it, the timetables are pretty tight already

They're pretty slack on Reading services, especially London-bound. Often lots of hanging around at Ascot, Virginia Water, Staines and Feltham.

 

[DMckduck]

They're pretty slack on Reading services, especially London-bound. Often lots of hanging around at Ascot, Virginia Water, Staines and Feltham.

The up reading was hemorrhaging delay minutes before it went to xx09 and xx39 departure from reading so won't be touched again.

Think it was accounting for nearly a quarter of all delay minutes across SWR

 

[swr444]

They're pretty slack on Reading services, especially London-bound. Often lots of hanging around at Ascot, Virginia Water, Staines and Feltham.

it is needed though, if a passenger assist is required etc this can eat into the dwell and then cause delays further down the line between Staines and Barnes. if the up reading is late, it then delays the up weybridge, windsor and the Kingston rounder at st margarets.

 

[Goldfish62]

it is needed though, if a passenger assist is required etc this can eat into the dwell and then cause delays further down the line between Staines and Barnes. if the up reading is late, it then delays the up weybridge, windsor and the Kingston rounder at st margarets.

Fair comment.

 

[43096]

The up reading was hemorrhaging delay minutes before it went to xx09 and xx39 departure from reading so won't be touched again.

Think it was accounting for nearly a quarter of all delay minutes across SWR

Which was down to two things: the door cycle times on the Desiros and SWR’s sloppy operating, a WorstGroup import from GWR.

The first is obviously resolved with the 701s. Will the second be sorted by removing the operator?

I’d point out that SWR promised faster journeys with the 701s, not a further slowdown. Another promise broken. Is there anything that this shower have actually delivered as promised?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Does anyone know if journey times will be improved due to better acceleration of class 701s?

Technically, the improved acceleration at least according to my calculations could provide APPROX up to 25% reduced journey times compared to a 455, 17% compared to a 458, and 8% compared to a 450. This is based on comparing how long it takes each unit to reach 40mph. At higher speeds the gap may be larger or smaller, although I'd assume the former. This is also assuming all units listed are at peak performance.
So for example if we were to look at a 1 min and 30 second journey compared to a 455 you'd be saving about 30 seconds.

 

[swtrains]

701 044 being tested at HMC today.
701s last went here 2 months and 6 days ago.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

They're pretty slack on Reading services, especially London-bound. Often lots of hanging around at Ascot, Virginia Water, Staines and Feltham.

One has to be careful in so far as there may be slack in some areas on a given route, but this may have no/little consequence further along the journey due to junction margins/following other (slower) trains etc. As one who had professional experience in both signalling and planning grades, Barnes was one of those places on the SW network that could be a killer for the/any proposed/ideal/optimum train plan (in the making), and for many years the signallers had a wish to change the line of route of the UP Readings at Barnes, in relation to that which applied in the WTT/SWT days. Their wish, which revolved around the use of the UW/WRL closer to Waterloo, made perfect sense to both myself and a-another I worked with, but the overall level of service in place at that time (combined with NR train planning rules/conflictions) precluded any such changes in our time.

Going back to class 701: if these units are faster in acceleration, and hence point to point timings are (theoretically) faster than the present timetable requires, then perhaps there may be some small potential to modify the timetable, as in WTT terms, in relation to routes approaching such places as the critical junction at Barnes (Jct) to improve overall running (WTT) performance, by combing same rules with the class 701 optimum acceleration/point to point running, even if as a result of such things as platforming at Waterloo, this may not allow any obvious 'public' related benefit (ie: faster end to end journey time), but it might allow a small amount of additional resilience within the journey times of certain services to the overall benefit of the 'public' performance measure? What do I know, too old in the tooth now perhaps...(jest)...

 

[NSEWonderer]

I don't know the 455 acceleration in relation to the 321 and 315s but when the 720s first took over they were easily making up time from delays, incases of 4mins due to the acceleration difference of the 720s.

 

[GW43125]

About a month ago I had a 701 on a late Windsor following a 455 on a late Reading. Despite stopping at Ashford, Whitton and Putney we still kept catching the 455!

It irks me greatly they've run the train earlier, so you sit at Feltham waiting time, then have to wait for the Weybridge which now conflicts at Feltham Jn as they pushed it back two minutes, destroying what was left of the connection at Weybridge...