Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[OneTrackMinded]

Remember what industry we are dealing with here

Also should add that this a contract that was agreed before COVID. It's likely they're just fulfilling their side with Alstom. Take a look at the wording of the LinkedIn post

 

[norbitonflyer]

Also should add that this a contract that was agreed before COVID. It's likely they're just fulfilling their side with Alstom. Take a look at the wording of the LinkedIn post

Not only was the contract agreed before COVID, but the fleet rollout should have been well under way - about halfway through - by the time lockdown started at the end of March 2020.

Direct extract from the First Group press release:

The new trains will start to come into service from mid 2019 and will all be in place by December 2020.

So it had already gone horribly wrong long before anyone had even heard of Covid.
Came across this post upthread, from 2017................

Try to keep up with events:roll: Since 2014 we've had a few thing s happen which everyone would have said would never happen:

• Conversion of LU d-stock to DEMUs
• Proposal of conversion of class 319s to DMUs
• Class 442s returning to the SWTs
• SWTs getting rid of the 458s (after conversions) and 455s (after re-tractioning)
• Upcoming re-tractioning of the 442s

Just because something would never have happened in 2014, doesn't mean that it might not happen now

Most of it didn't!

 

[43096]

Not only was the contract agreed before COVID, but the fleet rollout should have been well under way - about halfway through - by the time lockdown started at the end of March 2020.

So it had already gone horribly wrong long before anyone had even heard of Covid.

Indeed. Always worth reminding ourselves of the originally contracted timescales. The below table is taken from the SWR franchise agreements as originally signed.

 

[3141]

did it exist in printed form?

Details, though not necessarily all of them, were printed in reports about the new franchise in railway magazines. I think I still have the relevant issue of Modern Railways.

Draft timetables were published for consultation after the franchise had started. I downloaded some of them but not for the Windsor lines. They weren't all welcomed by the public, and from recollection First/MTR were engaging with the DfT about not going ahead with everything they had proposed.

 

[NorthLondoner]

There's some information which can be found on an old thread. It included draft timetables for enhancements to the Windsor and Reading, Portsmouth Harbour via Guildford and Kingston stopping services. Only part of the changes were implemented to this day.

SW Post-2018 timetable

SW have, earlier this week, released their proposed timetable; which would be active from December 2018. There now follows a three-month consultation period, running until mid-December. The timetables are available from https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/timetable-consultation...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The 707s reportedly have a very short amount of time left (going for inspection this Friday) - Good news presumingly as it means there's some sort of confidence the 701 rollout will start soon

 

[Dan G]

The 707s reportedly have a very short amount of time left (going for inspection this Friday) - Good news presumingly as it means there's some sort of confidence the 701 rollout will start soon

People have been saying "soon" since January.

 

[Stephen42]

No 701 unit out again on a bank holiday, what exactly is stopping this?

I know for a fact its not crew related so what could it realistically be.

With an amended Saturday timetable the diagram usually worked by 701s doesn't exist. If it was an absolute priority they probably could have amended the diagrams to have a handful of services operated by a 701. It has limited value and the stock isn't stretched anywhere near as much on a Saturday timetable. Focusing on the wider rollout would be the priority as that would have bigger fleet usage impact than a single bank holiday.

People have been saying "soon" since January.

With driver training having started that's the last key blocker. With the 707s due to leave and the schedules having an additional 0752 Surbiton to London Waterloo Monday to Thursday at the end of next month everything suggests progress towards rollout.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

0752 Surbiton to London Waterloo Monday to Thursday at the end of next month

That's interesting. Slightly strange service choice though... just one from there to Waterloo Monday to Thursday. I guess the idea is to help with peak time?

 

[Andy1673]

With an amended Saturday timetable the diagram usually worked by 701s doesn't exist. If it was an absolute priority they probably could have amended the diagrams to have a handful of services operated by a 701. It has limited value and the stock isn't stretched anywhere near as much on a Saturday timetable. Focusing on the wider rollout would be the priority as that would have bigger fleet usage impact than a single bank holiday.

With driver training having started that's the last key blocker. With the 707s due to leave and the schedules having an additional 0752 Surbiton to London Waterloo Monday to Thursday at the end of next month everything suggests progress towards rollout.

This type of rollout is the slowest of all. Now we have only one morning diagram of 701 with the sole evening peak 2R53, we will have two diagrams of 701s one of which will be the sole 0752 Surbiton to Waterloo (if it will be served by 701). What a progress!

 

[OneTrackMinded]

This type of rollout is the slowest of all. Now we have only one morning diagram of 701 with the sole evening peak 2R53, we will have two diagrams of 701s one of which will be the sole 0752 Surbiton to Waterloo (if it will be served by 701). What a progress!

This is just a theory but I think once we get the first new diagram they'll start appearing quicker. By December we should at least have another one on top of that, I assume

 

[InOban]

Given that a tranche of drivers complete their training every week, they'll need trains to drive, else they will need refresher courses!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==

Given that a tranche of drivers complete their training every week, they'll need trains to drive, else they will need refresher courses!

 

[WrongRoad]

Given that a tranche of drivers complete their training every week, they'll need trains to drive, else they will need refresher courses!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==

Given that a tranche of drivers complete their training every week, they'll need trains to drive, else they will need refresher courses!

Also there’s only a few 701’s cleared for passenger service at the moment, so drivers finishing their training some will have to go back and do refresher courses due to lack of stock and training on units that can be used.

 

[NSEWonderer]

I believe there is less than 8 701s actually passenger ready? But a tad more avaliable for driver training.

 

[5562]

So what specific differences are there between a passenger ready 701 and a driver training one?

 

[swt_passenger]

There's some information which can be found on an old thread. It included draft timetables for enhancements to the Windsor and Reading, Portsmouth Harbour via Guildford and Kingston stopping services. Only part of the changes were implemented to this day.

SW Post-2018 timetable

SW have, earlier this week, released their proposed timetable; which would be active from December 2018. There now follows a three-month consultation period, running until mid-December. The timetables are available from https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/timetable-consultation...

www.railforums.co.uk

It was also reported somewhere either in that thread, or the one it links to, that the Windsor 4 tph had already been removed, in favour of retaining the through trains to Weybridge. The original proposals had Weybridge reduced to being served by a shuttle between Weybridge and Staines. I guess that didn’t go down well at all, although I think it was a shuttle prior to 2004.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2024 ==

People have been saying "soon" since January.

But now there’s been a post in the SWR fleet withdrawals thread that they stop this Thursday.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I believe there is less than 8 701s actually passenger ready? But a tad more avaliable for driver training.

Only five have ever carried passengers in service (see post #9,000) - which are the other three?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Only five have ever carried passengers in service (see post #9,000) - which are the other three?

I did mention "less" but also SWR don't actively rotate these units either. Pretty sure for example Unit 43 was doing most of the work till it developed a few faults and the next unit took over.

Between 6-8 of them are "Passenger ready" and just slightly a few more are Driver training ready. That I got from an internal source. Now how or when the rest of the units progress into the Passenger ready side and what exactly makes them fit this criteria is an internal question for SWR Operations.

 

[Goldfish62]

Between 6-8 of them are "Passenger ready" and just slightly a few more are Driver training ready. That I got from an internal source. Now how or when the rest of the units progress into the Passenger ready side and what exactly makes them fit this criteria is an internal question for SWR Operations.

And I'm sure that Bombardier (Alstom), SWR and Rock Rail won't just be sitting back and doing nothing about the other 80+ units.

As it is the whole of the Windsor service can be converted to 701 operation with 5 units.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

And I'm sure that Bombardier (Alstom), SWR and Rock Rail won't just be sitting back and doing nothing about the other 80+ units.

I think most people forget that in they're current state they're costing an awful lot of money to all parties involved and it's hardly in their interest for them to sit around doing nothing

 

[norbitonflyer]

I did mention "less" but also SWR don't actively rotate these units either. Pretty sure for example Unit 43 was doing most of the work till it developed a few faults and the next unit took over.

Quite so - favourite at the moment is 039, which has done nearly all the work over the past two months, whilst 043 has only been out once since the beginning of July.

 

[Snow1964]

So what specific differences are there between a passenger ready 701 and a driver training one?

I was wondering that too, especially if operated as Driver only when empty when everything like doors and passenger info screens (showing not in service) need to work

What about guard training, is that on passenger ready version ?

I might have misunderstood, but I got impression the units that had been modified at Eastleigh, done their acceptance mileage and were moved to store were supposed to be be ready to use.

 

[NSEWonderer]

I'd assume it's various tests that have to be conducted especially for those that have been stored for so long. Checking the various passenger safety systems like Egresses, and alarms are still in decent working condition.

Passenger Confort systems like the AC, displays etc are again all working to acceptable standard. There'd be some criteria or tick boxes, with Driver training only units only having a few less criteria than full service, passenger ready units.

I was wondering that too, especially if operated as Driver only when empty when everything like doors and passenger info screens (showing not in service) need to work

What about guard training, is that on passenger ready version ?

I might have misunderstood, but I got impression the units that had been modified at Eastleigh, done their acceptance mileage and were moved to store were supposed to be be ready to use.

 

[Bigfoot]

As it is the whole of the Windsor service can be converted to 701 operation with 5 units.

But not simply, 5 units come from different depots, having enough crews trained to cover the whole of every diagram every day requires a significant number of crew trained on the stock. Also it is frowned upon and not good practice to have the same crews working the same diagrams day in day out.

If you say there are 30 trips to and from Windsor from Waterloo per day (half hourly for 15 hours):

Each driver doing 2 return trips (not uncommon in a diagram but most will do 1 and then other work along side that). I'm sure there are rules of dco and non dco mixed diagrams that I can't recall so we will gloss over that.

That is 15 drivers. working an average of a 4 day week you now need 30 to guarantee cover every day (Monday to Saturday) providing that their roster pattern line up perfectly. Probably more like 40-50 to cover for holiday, other workplace training, sickness etc.

Now factor in the positioning moves from depots to starting station and that there are more than 30 trips.

I haven't even mentioned guards.

It's so much further away from a simple oh it's only 5 units.

 

[Goldfish62]

But not simply, 5 units come from different depots, having enough crews trained to cover the whole of every diagram every day requires a significant number of crew trained on the stock. Also it is frowned upon and not good practice to have the same crews working the same diagrams day in day out.

If you say there are 30 trips to and from Windsor from Waterloo per day (half hourly for 15 hours):

Each driver doing 2 return trips (not uncommon in a diagram but most will do 1 and then other work along side that). I'm sure there are rules of dco and non dco mixed diagrams that I can't recall so we will gloss over that.

That is 15 drivers. working an average of a 4 day week you now need 30 to guarantee cover every day (Monday to Saturday) providing that their roster pattern line up perfectly. Probably more like 40-50 to cover for holiday, other workplace training, sickness etc.

Now factor in the positioning moves from depots to starting station and that there are more than 30 trips.

I haven't even mentioned guards.

It's so much further away from a simple oh it's only 5 units.

You've misunderstood me.

The comments I was responding to were in relation to there only being 6-8 units currently available. I pointed out that the whole of the Windsor service requires just 5 units. I made no mention of crewing, which by the way, I fully understand the logistics of as you've outlined.

 

[dave6]

Hi
Came past Wimbledon depot yesterday and 'spied' 3 x 701's stabled in the running shed nearest the station.
Does anyone have intel as to which they might be.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

But not simply, 5 units come from different depots, having enough crews trained to cover the whole of every diagram every day requires a significant number of crew trained on the stock

Probably more like 40-50 to cover for holiday, other workplace training, sickness etc.

Now factor in the positioning moves from depots to starting station and that there are more than 30 trips.

Well said, and glad to see that the 'planning/'rostering'' aspect is appreciated. Back in my day it was often difficult to get such points across, and that was often to 'other' in house departments...let alone non industry people!

 

[Peter Sarf]

But not simply, 5 units come from different depots, having enough crews trained to cover the whole of every diagram every day requires a significant number of crew trained on the stock. Also it is frowned upon and not good practice to have the same crews working the same diagrams day in day out.

If you say there are 30 trips to and from Windsor from Waterloo per day (half hourly for 15 hours):

Each driver doing 2 return trips (not uncommon in a diagram but most will do 1 and then other work along side that). I'm sure there are rules of dco and non dco mixed diagrams that I can't recall so we will gloss over that.

That is 15 drivers. working an average of a 4 day week you now need 30 to guarantee cover every day (Monday to Saturday) providing that their roster pattern line up perfectly. Probably more like 40-50 to cover for holiday, other workplace training, sickness etc.

Now factor in the positioning moves from depots to starting station and that there are more than 30 trips.

I haven't even mentioned guards.

It's so much further away from a simple oh it's only 5 units.

Once critical mass for staffing Windsor is achieved would it be likely that adding other routes starts to get easier ?.
I assume then the number of 701s available would have to increase so we will ony then begin to see how ready for action further 701s are.

And all this has to happen quick enough that drivers' competency does not lapse.

 

[SWT_USER]

What routes do drivers who cover Windsor diagrams typically sign? Or does it vary hugely?

Just wondering, for example, if there are enough drivers for Windsor trained on 701's would that make it easier to introduce them on Weybridge via Hounslow services too because the same drivers sign all routes on the Windsor side? I am guessing it won't be that simple..

 

[SWR_DRIVER]

What routes do drivers who cover Windsor diagrams typically sign? Or does it vary hugely?

Just wondering, for example, if there are enough drivers for Windsor trained on 701's would that make it easier to introduce them on Weybridge via Hounslow services too because the same drivers sign all routes on the Windsor side? I am guessing it won't be that simple..

To my knowledge, any train crew that signs Windsor will also sign Weybridge via Hounslow. However, drivers that do these routes don't necessarily also sign Reading. Also various stabling points along the Windsor side may also not be part of a driver's route knowledge...