Class 700s Being 'Refreshed"

[Bald Rick]

Is that because there are 644 carriages to fit with wifi or because it is genuinely difficult to install the wiring?

Let’s just say it’s contractual.

 

[Russel]

Adding wifi to existing trains is hardly difficult, seeing that trains as old as the Networkers have had the equipment installed. Indeed the 700s must be one of the few mainline trains without wifi on every unit.

Is there actually a need to fit WiFi?

It's not 2010 any more, mobile data is cheap and readily available.

 

[Farigiraf]

That’s because there wasn’t a flood of complaints!

There were quite a few comments on these pages, but in terms of direct feedback from passengers, very little.

Two reasons for that, neither are necessarily because the average passenger actually likes the seats:
1 - Not many people take the time to go on the internet to complain about train seating, or write to a TOC about it. I'm sure most passengers are largely indifferent about train seating really - if it's relatively uncomfortable then they'll note that but it's unlikely to affect their decisionmaking about train travel from then on (price and timings are far larger factors). I've done many hours on buses and trams (and Thameslink trains) with really uncomfortable seating but 99% of the time I focus on other things, such as the view out of the window.

2 - Thameslink journey types vary quite a lot, and a significant portion of journeys on Thameslink are sub-half hour trips into/across the city. There certainly isn't an insignificant amount of people travelling on it for longer (e.g. from Huntingdon, Brighton or Flitwick) but even these trips are rarely long enough that ironing board seats start really bothering people as it does on GWR trains to Cornwall for example.

Add the two together and of course there wasn't a flood of complaints. But if you were to interview regular commuters I would not be surprised if most of them didn't think favourably of the seating. Furthermore, things like poor reliability, lack of plug sockets or wifi and the absolute state that some of the loos are in often overshadow the poor seating - again, this doesn't mean that it's not a problem.

 

[Russel]

Two reasons for that, neither are necessarily because the average passenger actually likes the seats:
1 - Not many people take the time to go on the internet to complain about train seating, or write to a TOC about it. I'm sure most passengers are largely indifferent about train seating really - if it's relatively uncomfortable then they'll note that but it's unlikely to affect their decisionmaking about train travel from then on (price and timings are far larger factors). I've done many hours on buses and trams with really uncomfortable seating but 99% of the time I focus on other things, such as the view out of the window.

2 - Thameslink journey types vary quite a lot, and a significant portion of journeys on Thameslink are sub-half hour trips into/across the city. There certainly isn't an insignificant amount of people travelling on it for longer (e.g. from Huntingdon, Brighton or Flitwick) but even these trips are rarely long enough that ironing board seats start really bothering people as it does on GWR trains to Cornwall for example.

Add the two together and of course there wasn't a flood of complaints. But if you were to interview regular commuters I would not be surprised if most of them didn't think favourably of the seating. Furthermore, things like poor reliability, lack of plug sockets or wifi and the absolute state that some of the loos are in often overshadow the poor seating - again, this doesn't mean that it's not a problem.

Third reason, they aren't actually anywhere near as bad as they were made out to be on here.

 

[43096]

It wasn’t forgotten. It was not specified. To put in context, the train was originally specified long before the iPad was put on sale.

But DfT were asked - more than once - by Siemens if they wanted the wiring installing for it at build. DfT said no every time.

Only one party to blame for it.

 

[vuzzeho]

Re graffiti in the toilets I wonder if a solution is to have a camera in the toilet that is turned on when the door is unlocked, and another one outside which records for a length of time after the door is opened.

Then a bit of AI to spot if the walls have changed from the last photograph, to alert if there has been a graffiti attack.

That way they might actually start to catch the criminals, rather than just repeatedly repair the damage.

(You’d obviously have to have something on the camera to show if it was active or not to reassure people that they were not being filmed.)

Even with an indicator, just having a camera in a public toilet is completely illegal. Maybe one outside, but that would be hard to position to get a view of potential graffiti spots on a 700, from experience.

 

[Recessio]

And anyone who really actually cares that much about the seats could just go sit in the declassified first.

The lack of WiFi on some trains and not having power sockets is much more of a bugbear for me. They could at least have put in cleaners sockets by the doors like on the Electrostars so I can snatch a cheeky ten minutes of charging!

 

[physics34]

Frustrating this really because just a clean up is not something to boast about, especially for trains that are so underwelming and in places are not fit for purpose.
Just an extra inch of seat padding and new material could make a world of difference together with tables, wifi etc

 

[yorksrob]

It wasn’t forgotten. It was not specified. To put in context, the train was originally specified long before the iPad was put on sale.

But long after coffee cups had been invented, so no excuse for the lack of seat back tables.

 

[Bald Rick]

But long after coffee cups had been invented, so no excuse for the lack of seat back tables.

As has been explained multiple times, they were deliberately not specified, to speed loading / unloading of the trains in the core. That was a compromise made for a train that needs metro and outer suburban characteristics, and unfortunately unless it has metro style loading and unloading the whole concept doesn’t work. Hence wide aisles, wide vestibules with standbacks, wide doors, etc.

And it works, my 8 coach train had at least 1200 people on it yesterday, and dwells in the core were all around 60 seconds.

That some were fitted later in the build was a result of feedback - some of it on here!

 

[Fincra5]

As has been explained multiple times, they were deliverstely not specified, to speed loading / unloading of the trains in the core. That was a compromise made for a train that needs metro and oter suburban characteristics, and unfortunately unless it has metro style loadign and unloading the whole concept doesn’t work. Hence wide aisles, wide vestibules with standbacks, wide doors, etc.

And it works, my 8 coach train had at least 1200 people on it yesterday, and dwells in the core were all around 60 seconds.

That some were fitted later in the build was a result of feedback - some of it on here!

Indeed but the idea not to specify them at the time (like WiFI) was a poor decision by the DfT at the time. I wouldn't say Seat Back tables impacts Loading and Unloading Times. In my experience, most people have got their bag packed, tray table stowed and coffee cup in hand before the train has stopped.

 

[janahan]

It wasn’t forgotten. It was not specified. To put in context, the train was originally specified long before the iPad was put on sale.

Indeed, and i think I did cover that, albeit in a slightly roundabout way in point 1 and 3 (they didnt think it was important at the time, it was a long time back). It does highlight something though, When such large programmes such as "Thameslink" and "IET" often involved by DFT, or other government bodies, there can be large "lead times", leading to specifications that may or can be out of date by the time the final product is realised. Whilst I am very much on the fence on whether Privatisation was successful or not, but When a TOC instead procures stock, or refresh existing stock, they can be a bit quicker, and as such things may be a little more up to date.

Something that GBR really needs to understand. They will obviously be able to manage things possibly better across the whole network, but they still need to have the agility for small areas to quickly react.

 

[jon0844]

Indeed but the idea not to specify them at the time (like WiFI) was a poor decision by the DfT at the time. I wouldn't say Seat Back tables impacts Loading and Unloading Times. In my experience, most people have got their bag packed, tray table stowed and coffee cup in hand before the train has stopped.

Yes I think people can cope with clearing and tipping up a table quickly to either get off themselves or to let the person in the window seat out.

I suspect adding power sockets to all seats would be a higher risk of people getting tangled up or chargers and cables getting damaged.

We can perhaps compare the Elizabeth Line as a similar RER type service akin to Thameslink running through the core, and they don't have many seats, tables or power sockets. USB-A ports are positioned in very limited locations so as not to cause issues.

I am sure power sockets will come when the train gets refurbished at some point but maybe they should be only USB-C (USB-PD) and perhaps installed on the seat backs.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

A livery that is not so light colored would be nice, all that white and the pastel blue doors was a poor livery choice! The Class 700s received horrible black grunge build up at the bottom of the exterior doors where they curve inwards. They look tatty and grubby now on the exterior.

Let’s hope a referb can otherwise improve the visual appearance of the hard worked trains. Apart from that, I actually find them perfectly acceptable, spacious and light, though unfortunately in recent years, severe vandalism in the lavatories especially has been an issue, which will hopefully reduce once refurbishment begins.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen one of the cleaned trains and it's ridiculously white - like something you'd see on a washing powder commercial!

It's amazing to think that's what these looked like new and gradually got more and more brown in colour as time went on.

 

[physics34]

A livery that is not so light colored would be nice, all that white and the pastel blue doors was a poor livery choice! The Class 700s received horrible black grunge build up at the bottom of the exterior doors where they curve inwards. They look tatty and grubby now on the exterior.

Let’s hope a referb can otherwise improve the visual appearance of the hard worked trains. Apart from that, I actually find them perfectly acceptable, spacious and light, though unfortunately in recent years, severe vandalism in the lavatories especially has been an issue, which will hopefully reduce once refurbishment begins.

I sent a message on our internal site and said there should be a lower dark grey stripe to hide the dust and dirt and they said its not needed because they will be cleaned more often..that was 8 years ago lol

 

[William3000]

As has been explained multiple times, they were deliverstely not specified, to speed loading / unloading of the trains in the core. That was a compromise made for a train that needs metro and oter suburban characteristics, and unfortunately unless it has metro style loadign and unloading the whole concept doesn’t work. Hence wide aisles, wide vestibules with standbacks, wide doors, etc.

And it works, my 8 coach train had at least 1200 people on it yesterday, and dwells in the core were all around 60 seconds.

That some were fitted later in the build was a result of feedback - some of it on here!

Peterborough, Cambridge, Brighton etc are not ‘outer suburban’ - they are long distance regional destinations

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Peterborough, Cambridge, Brighton etc are not ‘outer suburban’ - they are long distance regional destinations

Those long distance regional destinations are all served by limited stop express services though. The purpose of Thameslink is not to provide the main service to Peterborough, Cambridge and Brighton. For those, book onto LNER, a Kings Lynn 379, or a Brighton GX 387, and you'll get the amenities you're calling for here.

 

[Farigiraf]

Those long distance regional destinations are all served by limited stop express services though. The purpose of Thameslink is not to provide the main service to Peterborough, Cambridge and Brighton. For those, book onto LNER, a Kings Lynn 379, or a Brighton GX 387, and you'll get the amenities you're calling for here.

Although the end destinations do have faster services, most Thameslink longer-distance services do provide the main service to numerous towns past the 'outer suburban' area. To name a few: Flitwick, Stevenage, Leagrave, Huntingdon, St Neots and Letchworth - added up, that's over 5 million journeys. Also worth noting Wixams (for Universal) which'll be primarily served by Thameslink trains to London and Luton Airport, both long-ish journeys.
Alternative services with better seating and tables from these stations are either infrequent (1tph GN at SVG and LET, compared to 4tph/2tph on TL), peak-only (HUN/SNO) or nonexistent (FLT/LEA).

 

[yorksrob]

As has been explained multiple times, they were deliverstely not specified, to speed loading / unloading of the trains in the core. That was a compromise made for a train that needs metro and oter suburban characteristics, and unfortunately unless it has metro style loadign and unloading the whole concept doesn’t work. Hence wide aisles, wide vestibules with standbacks, wide doors, etc.

And it works, my 8 coach train had at least 1200 people on it yesterday, and dwells in the core were all around 60 seconds.

That some were fitted later in the build was a result of feedback - some of it on here!

Kudos to the DfT (or whoever specified them) for eventually seeing the error of their ways.

Now it's refresh time, they ought to go back and fix the rest.

 

[Russel]

Frustrating this really because just a clean up is not something to boast about, especially for trains that are so underwelming and in places are not fit for purpose.
Just an extra inch of seat padding and new material could make a world of difference together with tables, wifi etc

It says a lot about Thameslink that something like this, which is routine at other TOCs is seen as newsworthy.

 

[Bald Rick]

Now it's refresh time, they ought to go back and fix the rest.

When refresh time comes, I’m sure Siemens will provide a quote.

However it isn’t yet - it’s clean up time

 

[bramling]

When refresh time comes, I’m sure Siemens will provide a quote.

However it isn’t yet - it’s clean up time

Can someone explain why there’s suddenly a clamour to “clean” the 700s?

I get the toilets issue absolutely, but I can’t say I’ve ever noticed the outside being that much of an issue. If anything the 379s look worse bearing the scars from their time in store. For all the many negative aspects of the class 700, I can’t say I’ve ever noticed external presentation as being one of them.

 

[Failed Unit]

Can someone explain why there’s suddenly a clamour to “clean” the 700s?

I get the toilets issue absolutely, but I can’t say I’ve ever noticed the outside being that much of an issue. If anything the 379s look worse bearing the scars from their time in store. For all the many negative aspects of the class 700, I can’t say I’ve ever noticed external presentation as being one of them.

Some of them have the scars of graffiti attacks (as do the 717s) but not that bad to be honest

 

[Robski]

I can’t say I’ve ever noticed the outside being that much of an issue.

The class 700's have a big external cleanliness issue in my experience. It's gotten so bad that on some units they have cleaned out a rectangle around the Thameslink logo so that it is still legible. The automated carriage wash machines also do not clean the recessed door area (although tbh they do a terrible job overall!).

Some units are now also running around with only some bits of the carriage body cleaned properly, which illustrates just how dirty the trains have gotten - some units have also had their "stripes" removed but it is very difficult to tell as the rest of the body is so dirty it contrasts in such a way that at a glance it looks like it's still there!

 

[Brightonboy]

Those long distance regional destinations are all served by limited stop express services though. The purpose of Thameslink is not to provide the main service to Peterborough, Cambridge and Brighton. For those, book onto LNER, a Kings Lynn 379, or a Brighton GX 387, and you'll get the amenities you're calling for here.

Whilst the purpose Thameslink may not be to provide the main service from London to Peterborough etc, it absolutely does provide opportunities for additional services to those places which means growth in the rail business. I have made several day return journeys Luton to Brighton which were far more convenient and straightforward by Thameslink than they would have been via StP, tube and Victoria; to the extent that I may well have not made those journeys by that route. Why, on such journeys, should I not have the option of a tray table etc?
We should be in the business of increasing the use of rail, and 'decongesting' London; where there are opportunities to use through trains for longer distances then that should be encouraged and made easy and more attractive. We should not be in the business of saying the simple route should be uncomfortable and the more comfortable and better equipped route should require a cross London journey by tube.

 

[Russel]

Some of them have the scars of graffiti attacks (as do the 717s) but not that bad to be honest

The 717s still look fairly smart in comparison to the 700s.

 

[Bald Rick]

The class 700's have a big external cleanliness issue in my experience. It's gotten so bad that on some units they have cleaned out a rectangle around the Thameslink logo so that it is still legible. The automated carriage wash machines also do not clean the recessed door area (although tbh they do a terrible job overall!).

Some units are now also running around with only some bits of the carriage body cleaned properly, which illustrates just how dirty the trains have gotten - some units have also had their "stripes" removed but it is very difficult to tell as the rest of the body is so dirty it contrasts in such a way that at a glance it looks like it's still there!

The ’some bits’ of the carriages being cleaned is part of this programme, and has been underway for months. It is where minor dents and nicks have been filled, pending the full cleaning and repainting where required.

Why, on such journeys, should I not have the option of a tray table etc?

You do! I regular travel St albans to Brighton (which, like you, I wouldn’t do without the direct train), and always get a table. Travel off peak mind you.

 

[white43306]

Saw 010 and 044 and 052 this morning and they’re bloody white and the diagonal line is now gone from the livery. It’s remarkable how filthy those not refreshed look.

 

[jon0844]

Saw 010 and 044 and 052 this morning and they’re bloody white and the diagonal line is now gone from the livery. It’s remarkable how filthy those not refreshed look.

The diagonal line removal is probably helping prepare for new vinyls to be added in the coming years.

You certainly do need dark glasses when they come by!

700 polished

717 for comparison