Class 700's and 319's

[TEW]

Good point about where to put a laptop/tablet and coffee etc.

That's one thing that got me on c2c.

Mind you, it's only the 365s that have the seat back tables on the GN side. Do the 377s on the TV side have them?

The 377s have seat back tables in both the 3+2 and 2+2 sections. Even the bays in the 3+2 sections have half-tables.

 

[swt_passenger]

The upgrade is not for that part though is it? And you will get more carriages as isn't it a lot more 12 car services?

The upgrade is for the core which will see improvements.

Originally the Wimbledon Loop wasn't going to stay part of Thameslink, one of the published reasons being the physical impossibility of upgrading platforms between Sutton and Wimbledon to 12 car.

So having walked back on that decision, they've locked in at least 4 tph of 8 car trains for the foreseeable future.

I'm not sure on the specifics, but is the Catford loop limited length as well, although in this case the platforms could be extended?

 

[jon0844]

The 377s have seat back tables in both the 3+2 and 2+2 sections. Even the bays in the 3+2 sections have half-tables.

Thanks. Couldn't picture in my head if they did or not.

But the c2c 357s definitely don't, and they're so airy that there's nowhere to put anything. Put something on the floor and it will end up at the other end of the carriage in no time!!

 

[HSTEd]

Thameslink is for some reason now expected to serve as a pseudo Crossrail when it was not really intended for such a thing.

It should not be used to get out of building another underground line along a busy corridor for inner London traffic.

 

[jon0844]

As the population of London grows with no end in sight, I think this is - sadly - the only way to prepare the service for the next 20-30 years.

I can imagine all new tube trains will have more and more open space.

If we imagine that the 700s will be mostly 2+2 seating but with larger vestibules, and some carriages with lots of open space to accommodate bags, buggies, wheelchairs, bikes etc - I think it will work as long as it's made clear to passengers before boarding where to be.

It's good to see nice big wheelchair/bike logos on the side (not as big as in Germany, but getting there) which might help, but I also think stations will need better platform signs (ideally dynamic ones like on the train, not fixed ones).

 

[jopsuk]

Thameslink is for some reason now expected to serve as a pseudo Crossrail when it was not really intended for such a thing.

If it wasn't for the problem of fitting more services into St Pancras, it would be better if it WAS a pseudo-crossrail, with higher intensity services along the "metro" parts of the MML and GN routes, connecting to Southern/Southeastern metro services.

 

[jon0844]

As time goes on, I'm less and less excited about the ECML linking up at all.

The walk from King's Cross to St Pancras is under 10 minutes (taking it easy and not stressing).

I predict all sorts of fun and games, and may well find myself using slow services to and from FPK over delayed trains going to or from the core.

Of course I desperately hope to be proven massively wrong.

 

[HSTEd]

If it wasn't for the problem of fitting more services into St Pancras, it would be better if it WAS a pseudo-crossrail, with higher intensity services along the "metro" parts of the MML and GN routes, connecting to Southern/Southeastern metro services.

The only way that such a thing would be practical now is a new line from scratch.
Which would remove the need to use TL for internal london journeys at all and free it to do what it was originally intended to do.

But the Treasury would never go for a new line so instead we get this horrific abortion of a line that is neither one nor the other.

Crossrail 2 might help though if it ever actually happens.

EDIT:

As to the ECML joining Thameslink, it tends to free large amounts of platform space at King's Cross (especially if Moorgate returns to 7-day a week operation) which is interesting if HS2 works properly.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's good to see nice big wheelchair/bike logos on the side (not as big as in Germany, but getting there) which might help, but I also think stations will need better platform signs (ideally dynamic ones like on the train, not fixed ones).

there will be much better signage and CIS at the stations, at least in the TL core. One other thing is that stop boards will be positioned such that the coaches for level access / bikes etc will always stop in the same place regardless of whether it is an 8 or 12 car train, so platforms can be zoned accordingly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

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EDIT:

As to the ECML joining Thameslink, it tends to free large amounts of platform space at King's Cross (especially if Moorgate returns to 7-day a week operation) which is interesting if HS2 works properly.

Except the platforms freed up are no use except for trains of less than 160m.

 

[jon0844]

Was there ever a plan or the scope to extend platforms 9-11, going into where the concourse obviously now is? Then the front square could have become that, and possibly built in keeping with the style of the main structure (extended out).

As it is, those platforms seem to be destined to always hold no more than 8 car trains.

 

[HSTEd]

Except the platforms freed up are no use except for trains of less than 160m.

Well there are currently several trains a day that fit that description.

And after IEP arrives there will be many more with all these 5-car IEPs that are going to be running around.

And Cambridge Cruisers are not the only FCC trains to use the main part of teh station.

 

[southern442]

Thanks. Couldn't picture in my head if they did or not.

But the c2c 357s definitely don't, and they're so airy that there's nowhere to put anything. Put something on the floor and it will end up at the other end of the carriage in no time!!

Don't they have half-tables at the ends of the driving carriages?

I feel with the 700's they have only focused on the central section of thameslink, and whilst the programme does benefit the central core, it has made things worse for long distance travellers.

 

[jopsuk]

As far as I understand the current proposals, both the Cambridge Express x2 (1 to Kings Lynn, both maybe in future), AND the Cambridge stoppers (all stations Stevenage-Cambridge) will stay Kings Cross services, with Thameslink taking over the semi-fast (Cambridge-Royston-Letchworth-Hitchin-Stevenage) and adding a second one of those- as they're not (as far as I know) lengthening the 4-car stations now? So as the Cambridge stopper has to be 4-car, and most of the expresses will be 4 or 8 (only peak time are they or need to be 12 usually), and there are some similar services on the Peterborough side, plus the short trains of the Open Access services, there's plenty that will still use 9-11 (or 10-12 as they'll hopefully be renumbered when the area is resignalled, surely?)

 

[Bald Rick]

The current plan is that the only TSGN services into Kings Cross will be the Cambridge / Lynn flyers and a handful of peak extras, mostly of 12 cars to Peterborough.

So the only trains fit to use 9-11 will be the Cambridge flyers (if 8 car or fewer) and any long distance stuff formed of trains less than 160m. Which means 5 car IEPs or 6x23m 'other'.

 

[The Box Photter]

Went along to the Class 700 exhibition at Excel this evening. The sample seats, although thinly padded, were reasonably comfortable and I was told that the exact configuration of the trains has yet to be finalised. However, there were two diagrams showing the 8-car and 12-car intended formations, which indicate that the bulk of the seating will be airline 2+2 style with a few 2+2 facing seats.

Wheelchair users will be in the centre cars where the accessible toilet will be (one per train). There will be raised platform sections to match up with the doors on each accessible carriage to eliminate the need for wheelchair ramps as at present (to speed up loading/unloading through the "Core").

Roughly one third of the front and rear carriage is intended to be 1st class (26 seats for the chosen few) and in the second and penultimate carriages there will be bicycle storage for a maximum of two bicycles.

The doors look to be significantly wider and are intended to open more quickly than current units. The floors will not be carpeted and the seats are cantilevered to maximise floor luggage space (and also help with cleaning). No tables or seat back flip-down trays will be provided in standard, so if you want to use a laptop you'd better stump up for a 1st class season ticket.

So its essentially a glorified underground train with some toilets and extra luggage space for airport/Eurostar passengers.

Apparently, the units will be built in Krefeld (Germany) and then tested at the Siemens test track at Wildenrath. The units will have to exhibit trouble free operation before they will be moved to the UK for acceptance testing.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apparently, the units will be built in Krefeld (Germany) and then tested at the Siemens test track at Wildenrath. The units will have to exhibit trouble free operation before they will be moved to the UK for acceptance testing.

As per nearly every other Desiro UK so far then?

 

[The Box Photter]

As per nearly every other Desiro UK so far then?

Yes, although the class 700 is not being marketed as a Desiro now is it?

 

[samuelmorris]

I thought 'Desiro City' would be close enough?

I would have liked to have visited the demonstration of this, but a manic week at work put an end to that idea. Still, from the comprehensive sets of photos uploaded I have a fair idea of what they're going to be like. The only thing I really can't judge from the images are the seat padding. I'm going to assume that they'd be similar to the current Desiro seats, i.e. firm but not excessively so, and not like those on the 377/6, which would be a bit much for end-to-end travellers.

My few thoughts on this:

- The animated full colour displays are a good idea, given sufficient viewing angle (particularly for those standing quite close underneath).
- The underground service status info panel is something I've been waiting to see since dot matrix displays first appeared in rolling stock all those years ago. It's about time! Knowing what the situation is at the time you're already travelling is very useful, as the service might be fine when you set off, but if a delay on the underground occurs when travelling into London, you might think 'ooh, delays on the northern line, I'll stay on until Blackfriars then', rather than having to alight to then discover the issue and have to plan your diversion accordingly.
- Animated adverts however, will be very tiresome, especially if when they're showing they take place of useful information - they need to think that through carefully
- The appearance of the units inside and out is very good, and suggests a fairly high quality product
- I think the high-density style seating was necessary for peak-time activity in the central section and the shorter distance stations out as far as St. Albans, Welwyn, and the Wimbledon loop. Since those are likely to be 8-car trains I wondered if perhaps the seating config of the 12-car units would be different, with more longer-distance focused seating. As it stands, first class on a 700 is really just providing access to what standard class is like on a 377, with the exception perhaps of power sockets on the latter (or should I say, earlier examples of the latter).
- I think 2+1 seating but preserving transverse layout was a sensible move for the accessibility carriage, as long as it's not replicated in any of the normal carriages for standing room (it doesn't look like it will be)
- I know not being a plug door, the mechanism will be totally different, but Siemens would need a faster operating door for this stock. The leisurely pace the current desiro doors operate at isn't going to cut it :P

Overall I'm looking forward to these taking over, since I really only use Thameslink in the central section, or very occasionally to go down to Haywards Heath. Those travelling further afield on a regular basis though might not be quite so keen, having seen the seating!

 

[jon0844]

But we didn't really get to see the seating properly, as it will only be when you see a whole carriage set up with the 2+2 seating that you can fully appreciate what the majority of the train will be like.

The mock up had two toilets, lots of luggage racks, a gangway and first class. We've not really seen the 'boring' stuff - which is ultimately what the long distance commuters and leisure travellers will be after.

I have high hopes that it will be just fine, and while possibly not as cosy as a 365 (pre refurb) or an Intercity train, will still be comfortable.

Given it has LED lighting, I wonder if it can be dimmed in any way for night time services. I am not sure if any trains here or abroad do that? I'm not talking about making it dark, but merely reducing the lighting a little bit so it's not quite as stark a contrast on the outside. It also helps see the platforms better at night too.

(Kicks himself for not thinking to ask when the people who would know were in the same room!)

 

[samuelmorris]

Not in detail - but I did note the proposed seating layout diagrams that were posted. Take those into consideration with the 'seating sample' given and it's not too hard to imagine what the rest of the train would look like.

The lighting level is an interesting point. I think for long distance stock it's probably a no-brainer, but for these units I'm not sure if they'd bother or not. I quite like sitting in one of the many areas in a 357 that's much darker at night because half the lights are out.

 

[jon0844]

FGW turned off a lot of the lights on the refreshed HSTs because they were way too bright, but with LEDs it should be dead simple to dim them (even if by just 10% or so).

Your eyes will adjust anyway, and it's going to help stop the sudden change in light when alighting (and boarding) at night. There are also arguably some safety benefits too, although it's not quite as important as on a plane given there's no takeoff or landing!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How are questions regarding the padding thicknesses of seating answered at these events by the staff on exhibition duty ?

 

[Class377/5]

Yes, although the class 700 is not being marketed as a Desiro now is it?

Yes it is. Its the Desiro City which Siemens are openly stating is the second generation design of the Desiro UK.

 

[HSTEd]

Is there anything official about the 'Desiro Express' around?
Or is it just magazine chatter.