Class 700's and 319's

[TEW]

If you seriously knew the appalling state the 319s were in you would not be saying that. At a minimum they need a deep clean, work on bodyside corrosion, and a full interior refurb. The supposedly nicer ex SN ones are disgusting. In all honesty they shouldn't be in service at all in the condition they are in now.

The 319/2s have a much better interior specification but are in a poorer state. FCC only really changed the seat covers, whereas the 319/3s and /4s were given a much better refurbishment with the interiors painted in standard First Group colours. If the /2s were given similar treatment they'd be much nicer. I don't think there's much wrong with /3s and /4s, the interiors are pretty well maintained, smart and clean. The problem is the interior is just an old design. There still much better than much of the Northern fleet. Think a 150 with original seats, just in a much nicer condition with no engine noise.

 

[starrymarkb]

This is the third new design after the 377/6 to use those horrible seats. Come on, they are not the only seat design in the world! There are others, most of which are a lot more comfortable. First class is also a far cry from the 319's. If only they still put thought into the interiors...

Could those seats have been specified by DfT/FCC? Who makes them?

 

[bicbasher]

I've just seen the local ITV News report on the interiors. Love the PIS, but those bloody seats from the 377/6's and the metro style interiors will make a trip from Brighton to Bedford seem more comfortable on a 319.

 

[transmanche]

I do like the LCD displays - which are the norm on Continental stock these days

Although displaying a worrying tendency towards unnecessary verbosity...

 

[southern442]

The 350s do not make any 185s available to free up any 170s for cascade elsewhere - your plan might be relevant after full TPE electrification, but in any case it has nothing whatsoever to do with 319s or 700s.

That was what I was thinking.
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The 319/2s have a much better interior specification but are in a poorer state. FCC only really changed the seat covers, whereas the 319/3s and /4s were given a much better refurbishment with the interiors painted in standard First Group colours. If the /2s were given similar treatment they'd be much nicer. I don't think there's much wrong with /3s and /4s, the interiors are pretty well maintained, smart and clean. The problem is the interior is just an old design. There still much better than much of the Northern fleet. Think a 150 with original seats, just in a much nicer condition with no engine noise.

What is the problem with an old design?

 

[northwichcat]

The 350s do not make any 185s available to free up any 170s for cascade elsewhere

That was what I was thinking.

With DfT trying to avoid new DMU orders I doubt they'll be many (if any) DMUs from the North going South unless a similar number of replacement units are sourced e.g. Anglia taking on the TPE 170s and releasing their Sprinters to Northern.

If units released by electrification in the North start going to other parts of the country for extra capacity then we'll need a large DMU order to be placed in around 2017 so there is something to replace the life expired Pacers. The DMUs displaced by North West, Thames Valley and Great Western electrification are needed for extra capacity in those areas plus the eastern side of the Northern franchise. It's only when Valley Lines and North TPE services go electric that we can start withdrawing old DMUs (except maybe the small fleet of GW 143s can go sooner.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 319/2s have a much better interior specification but are in a poorer state. .. There still much better than much of the Northern fleet. Think a 150 with original seats, just in a much nicer condition with no engine noise.

And this is the standard of interior you'd expect to see on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services (which are set to get the first cascaded 319s) currently: http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/jossrankin/media/After.png.html

While Northern's 142s and ex-LM 150s don't have nice interiors, that's less than half their fleet. Northern have:
* 27 x 150s which have had a full refurbishment
* 113 x Super and Express Sprinters (153s, 155s, 156s and 158s)
* 41 x post-1990 EMUs

Compared to 79 x 142s and 33 x 150s which retain the original interior, with the 10 ex-ATN 150s having had a decent refresh. (They also have 23 x 144s which have had full refurbishments.)

The objection to Northern is that they've not invested in any full refurbishments to the trains that still have the original interiors, not that all the trains they have retain their original interiors.

 

[southern442]

With DfT trying to avoid new DMU orders I doubt they'll be many (if any) DMUs from the North going South unless a similar number of replacement units are sourced e.g. Anglia taking on the TPE 170s and releasing their Sprinters to Northern.

If units released by electrification in the North start going to other parts of the country for extra capacity then we'll need a large DMU order to be placed in around 2017 so there is something to replace the life expired Pacers. The DMUs displaced by North West, Thames Valley and Great Western electrification are needed for extra capacity in those areas plus the eastern side of the Northern franchise. It's only when Valley Lines and North TPE services go electric that we can start withdrawing old DMUs (except maybe the small fleet of GW 143s can go sooner.)

I am not 100% certain this will work with diagramming and all that, but the 10 350/4's could replace 10 185's which will go on to the Hull and Cleethorpes routes, replacing the 9 170's that could be converted into 171's, strengthening trains from 4 to 6 car and 8 to 10 car.

 

[TEW]

What is the problem with an old design?

Nothing necessarily, but that seems to be the main objection to the 319s on here.

 

[northwichcat]

I am not 100% certain this will work with diagramming and all that, but the 10 350/4's could replace 10 185's which will go on to the Hull and Cleethorpes routes, replacing the 9 170's that could be converted into 171's, strengthening trains from 4 to 6 car and 8 to 10 car.

TPE have an approved track access application to run an additional train between Liverpool and York every hour from next May. Also the 10 x 350s won't stretch to cover all the Scottish services, which will be hourly from next May and 4 carriages won't be enough for some services.

An extra Manchester-York service every hour was supposed to happen in December 2012 but got pushed back with DfT opting for electrification instead of a new DMU order. Since then demand has also been identified for an additional Liverpool-Manchester service every hour.

 

[southern442]

Nothing necessarily, but that seems to be the main objection to the 319s on here.

I don't see why though. I quite like the interiors of older trains, and I like the interiors of 319/2's, despite them being an old design. I'm not sure why we are complaining about old designs, especially when the new designs are much much worse, like the one offered on the class 700.

 

[Class377/5]

I don't see why though. I quite like the interiors of older trains, and I like the interiors of 319/2's, despite them being an old design. I'm not sure why we are complaining about old designs, especially when the new designs are much much worse, like the one offered on the class 700.

It's all subjective opinion.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lots of complaints about the seats on here. Perhaps judgement should be reserved until they have been sat in. Personally I found them more comfortable than any existing stock on the route.

 

[Loki]

I don't see any problem with the 319's interiors. Nether do I see one with the 700s. Granted I haven't tried the seats yet but I do like the 2x1 seating as some people prefer to sit alone especially if they travel for just a stop or two. 700s interior looks like it has something for everyone.
I for one am perfectly happy with the new trains.

 

[bicbasher]

For those who don't live in the London area, I've uploaded the local news report to YouTube.

http://youtu.be/dFmJsZ6kG-I

 

[fusionblue]

I'm pretty disappointed by what i've seen so far (and the thameslink programme as a whole, if you look at it from the view of anyone from the wimbledon loop and to sevenoaks).

So by 2018, we'll see all the 319s go away to be replaced with 700s with less seats, more standing room, and exactly the same amount of carriages and trains per hour.

Looking at it like for like, it's not strictly an improvement.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I do like the LCD displays - which are the norm on Continental stock these days

Agreed, it seems very readable, especially for tourists or other passengers for whom English may not be a first language.

Do the Class 700s have any 2x2 table seating?

 

[andyb2706]

I am not 100% certain this will work with diagramming and all that, but the 10 350/4's could replace 10 185's which will go on to the Hull and Cleethorpes routes, replacing the 9 170's that could be converted into 171's, strengthening trains from 4 to 6 car and 8 to 10 car.

The 185's that are released from the Scottish service with the introduction of the 350/4's are being used on the new Liverpool to Newcastle service via Manchester Victoria (taking approx 33 minutes non-stop between Liverpool and Manchester) from the May timetable. And I think I remember reading somewhere that it only releases 6 185's with the introduction of the 350/4's.

 

[Fincra5]

I'm not so keen on that seating arrangement. No sir!

 

[andyb2706]

The seating arrangement reminds me of the Manchester Metrolink. Although I think it is better than the London Overground Class 378 seating.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah high standing.

To be honest I was expecting longitudal seating (part of carriage with 2+2 seating, part with two longitudal benches and poles for standing). I guess they decided the single seats were more comfortable than longitudal benches for expected journey length.

 

[jon0844]

It's odd to have 2+1 in std and 2+2 in first!

 

[macka]

Press photos of the Class 700.

The seating can also be in a 2x2 formation. So far we haven't seen any official seating plans, so we can't assume that it will be mostly 2x1.

 

[Stompehh]

Isn't the 2+1 seating there because this is the accessible carriage? Won't the normal carriages have standard 2+2?

EDIT: Indeed, this pic of a 'normal' carriage was posted earlier in the thread...

http://www.siemens.co.uk/pool/news_press/news_archive/2014/standard-class-2.jpg

 

[Fincra5]

It seems STD class passengers do not deserve arm rests! Even 313s have them

 

[Stompehh]

It seems STD class passengers do not deserve arm rests! Even 313s have them

365s don't!

 

[Aictos]

It seems STD class passengers do not deserve arm rests! Even 313s have them

Great Northern 313s certainly don't have them - the only ones which do are the ones on the Coastway services operated by Southern.

 

[jon0844]

Isn't the 2+1 seating there because this is the accessible carriage? Won't the normal carriages have standard 2+2?

EDIT: Indeed, this pic of a 'normal' carriage was posted earlier in the thread...

http://www.siemens.co.uk/pool/news_press/news_archive/2014/standard-class-2.jpg

Yes, I think that makes sense. Very good sense in fact. An accessible carriage that has plenty of room for bikes, bags and buggies too. And clearly marked on the outside it seems too.

Meanwhile, the bulk of the train will have 2+2 seating, while first will also be 2+2 and just have power sockets. The sole benefit of first being more chance of a seat and little else.

To me, it seems things have actually been pretty well thought out.

 

[Minstral25]

Sitting on the standard class seats for an hour between Brighton (or Cambridge/Peterborough) and London, where do I put my laptop to work or watch a movie, where do I put a coffee or my papers.

It seems the needs of a short section in London (which probably won't be that heavily used as there will be a train every couple of minutes) has meant they have forgotten the longer distance commuters who will be the main users of the units.

Like the doors and wide entrance and for the PIS, I think the more info provided as long as its clear the better.

They also look narrow but I'll judge that after I have been to ExCel later today

 

[jon0844]

Good point about where to put a laptop/tablet and coffee etc.

That's one thing that got me on c2c.

Mind you, it's only the 365s that have the seat back tables on the GN side. Do the 377s on the TV side have them?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm pretty disappointed by what i've seen so far (and the thameslink programme as a whole, if you look at it from the view of anyone from the wimbledon loop and to sevenoaks).

So by 2018, we'll see all the 319s go away to be replaced with 700s with less seats, more standing room, and exactly the same amount of carriages and trains per hour.

Looking at it like for like, it's not strictly an improvement.

The upgrade is not for that part though is it? And you will get more carriages as isn't it a lot more 12 car services?

The upgrade is for the core which will see improvements.