Class 66 sets off Detonator

[networkrail1]

For anyone who has ever asked how loud a det is here is an idea as a 66 runs over 1 as he enters a possesion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pbcn6FIZZg

 

[bengley]

That's pretty loud. I suppose they need to be though so the driver can hear it over the noise of the train.

 

[networkrail1]

yeh you can also feel it vibrate through the cab when your in the cab normaly we put 3 dets down on a possesion.

 

[GB]

round here the engineering trains dont usually set of the dets entering a possesion as they (and the PLB) are removed from the rail, train goes through and dets and PLB put back on.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I believe that is how it should be done GB. Protection removed, train goes through, protection replaced.

 

[networkrail1]

yes that is how it is suposed to be done, however in the vid it looks like the 66 suprised eveyone so it may of arrived early.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I would have thought there would still be time to remove the dets, as there seems to be a PiCOP there.

Anyway, doesn't matter really. Dets are very loud and in PTS courses you are advised to stand 30 yards away (30 meters nearly) in case of flying bits of it.

 

[Greeny]

And Network Rail are trying to get rid of detonators protecting T3 possesions claiming that one reason is that they cannot be heard from inside of a driving cab.

G

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well NR do have a history of reading around the rule book.

 

[networkrail1]

haha thats supposed to be a secret now i have to kill you

 

[GB]

And Network Rail are trying to get rid of detonators protecting T3 possesions claiming that one reason is that they cannot be heard from inside of a driving cab.

G

As I understand things the reason behind it is that some block road men have a history of placing the protection either on the wrong line or in the wrong area and to minimize the risk of being struck by a train à la Reading. Instead there will now be *Picop Agents responsible for going to the controlling signal box to ensure that the protection applied is correct and in order.

It has of course gone down a real treat with the signallers:roll:

*it some cases the signallers themselfs taking on the role, but the finer details are yet to be worked out

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But GB - there have been some situations where the signalman has not placed the correct protection - Bletchley incident with the MOM? But I suppose that is why you will have the PICOPs agent.

 

[Greeny]

Personally, I think this cock eyed idea about removing the requirement for detonators will last until there is a serious incident or somebody is hurt or killed. Then just watch the buck passing and the witch hunt, and detonators will slowly creep back into possessions.

G

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sadly that is what will happen Greeny, then NR will realise there mistake.

 

[Greeny]

I'm off to work now so pushed for time. However, if the thread is still active later on tonight, I'll post a few serious instances involving detonators or the absense of them. One turned fatal, the other almost got an entire gang wiped out.

G

 

[networkrail1]

ok look forward to reading them.

 

[Mojo]

What time in the video does it go off?

 

[networkrail1]

0.20 you see the flash of light as the 66 hits the det then at 0.21 you hear the bang.

 

[GB]

But GB - there have been some situations where the signalman has not placed the correct protection - Bletchley incident with the MOM? But I suppose that is why you will have the PICOPs agent.

Im in no doubt there have been occassions were the signaller has placed thier collars or reminder appliances incorrectly, but the incident at Bletchley wasnt caused purely by one individual but rather the confusion or miscommunication by all three parties and Im not sure the picops agent would be of any help as as far as Im aware, this would not be a scenario where they would be used.

Detonator protection and the possession limit board really is the last line of defense against a potentially serious/fatal incident, so I do have reservations against thier removal.

The idea of a Picops Agent double checking that the signaller has placed thier protection seems to be half baked at best. Invariably this "agent" will not have any experience or knowledge of the signal box or layout so Im not sure how he is supposed to confirm everything is correct...other by taking the word of the signaller but then this defeats the whole point.

Perhaps the BRM should be better briefed or prepared? I dont really know that side of things but perhaps OT might shed some light on the situation?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It seems rather pointless then, relying on someone who may not know how the box worked!

You are correct about the Bletchley incident, it was the first thing that sprang to mind. Therefore we can still assume that there may be miscommunitcation between signaller-agent-picop. It doesn't seem to solve that.

 

[adamp]

On the last day of the Oldham Loop the train ran over 5 detonators....
Towards the end of the video you can hear how loud they are from onboard a train.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAVjxoJh72o

 

[Old Timer]

Running over a detonator at a PLB is a Possession Irregularity full stop.

Detonators that are out of date or have missing leads are NOT supposed to be exploded but are required to be sent to Crewe for controlled disposal.

When Network Rail took Possession Management off the main Infrastructure Contractors, Possession irregularities soared, and indeed most weeknds (and sometimes weeks) there are examples to be found of irregularities with Possessions, protection placed on the wrong lines (again this week on the ECML), work being started outside Possessions, on lines not even under Possession. Although Irregularities obviously did occur under the Infrastructure Contractors, the incidence was much, much less frequent than is now the case, and were the result of genuine errors whereas now a lack of knowledge, local familiarisation, and a lack of competency seems to be a predominant feature

Apparantly the Infrastructure Contractors were "expensive" and NR would do things so much safer and cheaper.

The statistics bely that, as they do with everything that has happened since Maintenance was taken in-house.

 

[SWT Driver]

How can you get so excited about exploding a detonator? :roll:

The only time I might get excited about exploding one is if I were doing 90-100mph and I did it.

Then again you probably wouldn't find me in the cab after doing it, but running at a fair lick towards to rear of the train!

 

[Old Timer]

I am not, I am simply reporting on the actualitie.

It is a reportable incident in accordance with Network Rail reporting procedures for Possession Irregularities.

As a Manager I am required by H&S Law and by Contract of Employment to observe, and ensure my staff observe the rules whether or not I am in agreement.

The Blockroadman should have been positioned in advance of the detonator waiting the train not sat in his van which is what I suspect was happening. Another example of the so called "World Class Company" in action. :roll::roll:

 

[SWT Driver]

Do I get a touch of sarcasm there?

 

[Greeny]

ok look forward to reading them.

In the first incident a man died when he was struck by a ballast train inside of a possession.


Whilst there was no requirement for detonators in this instance anyway, the point I am making is that had the situation been at the end of the possession, the train would have passed over detonators and given warning of its approach.


In the second incident, with detonators, it was sheer fortune that a whole gang wasn’t killed; A possession had been granted between two boxes of the up and Down Main Lines, which are on a very steep curve. There was an ECS train in a sidings next to the blocked Down Main Line, and it was only this train’s presence which prevented the gang from getting physical access onto the worksite. So they had to wait until the ECS was moved clear. After a few minutes waiting, in the distance they heard ‘BANG’, ‘BANG’, ‘BANG’ so knew something was seriously up. After a few minutes a passenger train passed them on the blocked Down Main Line Had the ECS not been there, those men would have been in the four foot unclipping rails and the passenger train would have hit the lot of them if they hadn’t heard those detonators.


What had happened was, frankly, an effing disgrace. The Signalman who granted the possession had failed to use any reminder appliances and forgotten that he had granted the possession. So when he received the description for the last train (which he had also forgotten about) the Signalman simply cleared all of his Down Main signals and returned to his book in blissful ignorance. Then the train hit the detonators and stopped. The Driver Spoke to the Signalman (who still hadn’t twigged what had gone on) and asked him what was happening. Now, what follows is 100% true – I was involved in it in my job as an Inspector at the time so I can assure people reading this that there is no window dressing or making it up as I go along. The Signalman hummed and harred a bit then he said to the Driver ”okay Driver, you’d better carry on but you might find three more detonators at the other end”. Surprisingly, the driver did carry on, and he did find three more at the other end and popped them too, and he STILL kept going.


The Signalman smugly thought he had ‘squared it’ with the Driver. However, the Driver had second thoughts when he got to Lime Street and reported the matter.


I got a call at home telling me about it and asking me to attend. My first reaction was to tell the Controller to Foxtrot Oscar – I thought he was pulling my leg. Anyhow, when I got there the MOM was already there and the Ops Manager for that line arrived shortly after. Whilst the latter was talking to Medscreen, I took the Signalman to one side and said “you realise that you are out of the box, don’t you” to my surprise he was outraged, and considered himself to be the aggrieved party. I still haven’t figured out how he was the victim. Needless to say, he never worked another Signalbox. We had to advise him not to leave for a short time after his D&A screening for his own safety – there was a gang of seething, ballistic PWay men at the back of the box waiting for him, and they weren’t waiting to wish him all the best, so he wisely waited until they had dispersed. Personally, I could well have understood it if one of them had smacked him.


It still makes me shiver when I think of how close those men came to being hit, and how lucky (for the want of a better word) those men were. I’ve had 5staff fatalities, and I’m grateful this wasn’t another one.


Anyhow, I hope people reading this found it informative and possibly even helpful.

G

 

[Old Timer]

Do I get a touch of sarcasm there?

No, you will KNOW when I am being sarcastic old chap !

I think you have seen flesh freshly stripped from someone who has really p****d me off !

 

[TW7]

I hope they keep the T3 Possessions as they are. We were close to having a trial period with T3-D/T3-P and to be frank, whoever thought them up should be drug tested.

The total removal of the Detonator/PLB protection is madness. they also were expecting signallers to be able to recognise miles and chains for the purpose of confirming where the worksite markerboards were placed. (as markerboards were to replace the PLB/3 Dets.

MADNESS?.....THIS IS NETWORK RAIL!!!!! (insert Gerard Butler)

 

[chuffchuff]

The total removal of the Detonator/PLB protection is madness.

Got to agree with you there, having set off 3 Dets and Tw*ted a stop board
at 90mph, I was glad they were on the wrong track.

I know what. Let the idiots who think this is a good idea work in the possession, and I'lll come along with my feet up and reading the WON, and see how safe that is

Rant mode off before I start swearing alot