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Something I've been trying to work out but can't find any sources for.
The Class 508s were built as 4car units and later reduced to 3cars, they were originally numbered 508/0s and all units became 508/1s (with some then becoming /2 or /3)
My question is when were the units renumbered (0 to 1) and what formations were they in at the time? Was the reason for the renumbering the reforming of the unit from 4 to 3cars?
The reason for the renumbering from 508/0 to 508/1 was indeed their reduction to 3 cars and transfer to Liverpool. It is generally forgotten now, but a few did indeed run as 3 car on the South Western before going to Liverpool, but I don't think they ras as 508/1 numbers at that time. This was only a very temporary measure as the trailers removed were urgently required at York for insertion into the new 455/7s.
508043 enters Hall Road station with a service to Southport on a miserable afternoon in March 1983. This unit was soon renumbered 508143 and the box, gates & semaphores are no more.
flic.kr
Link to a photo on flickr of 508043 in 3 car formation at Hall Road station in 1983. Not my photo, credit to "MagLad" on Flickr.
From my records of the time, those reallocated to Merseyside ran as 508/0 until about mid-1984 before renumbering to 508/1 started. Believe the reason for renumbering was to avoid getting units from the two fleets mixed up.
My photo of 508017 at St Michaels, 19 May 1984:
And 508119 post delivery and very obvious renumbering at Allerton, 2 December 1984:
If I recall correctly the trailers were removed at Wimbledon and sent to York in batches of 3 or 4. Except for units 8012 & 8013 which went complete to York for accident damage repairs 08.05.84, they were reduced at York and the repaired then 3 car units went to Birkenhead 12.04.85: I do recall seeing one unit at Wimbledon, very late in the program, numbered as 508/1 but it was robably not officially done. The following 8 units ran as 3 cars on the Southers for very short periods in January/February 1985 but not all at the same time:
To 3 car 10.01.85 = 8005 8006 8038 All Strawberry Hill to Birkenhead 14.01.85:
to 3 car 22.01.85 = 8029, 23.01.85 8025, 24.01.85 8028 All Strawberry Hill to Birkenhead 28.01.85:
to 3 car 07.02.85 = 8037, 06.02.85 8026 Both Strawberry Hill to Birkenhead 11.02.85:
I recall that the SW Division was rather short of stock at this time, which is why they were pressed into temporary service as 3 cars: It was quite regular at the time for a few surburban diagrams to be turned out 4 vice 8 cars daily (what has changed??) and one day the inevital happened when a 3 x 508 was turned out vice 8 x 508 on a morning peak Epsom line duty - nobody realised it was a 3 car from the number untill it was far too late and the train was running, picking up delay as passengers scrambled to get on !
If I recall correctly the trailers were removed at Wimbledon and sent to York in batches of 3 or 4. Except for units 8012 & 8013 which went complete to York for accident damage repairs 08.05.84, they were reduced at York and the repaired then 3 car units went to Birkenhead 12.04.85: I do recall seeing one unit at Wimbledon, very late in the program, numbered as 508/1 but it was robably not officially done. The following 8 units ran as 3 cars on the Southers for very short periods in January/February 1985 but not all at the same time:
To 3 car 10.01.85 = 8005 8006 8038 All Strawberry Hill to Birkenhead 14.01.85:
to 3 car 22.01.85 = 8029, 23.01.85 8025, 24.01.85 8028 All Strawberry Hill to Birkenhead 28.01.85:
to 3 car 07.02.85 = 8037, 06.02.85 8026 Both Strawberry Hill to Birkenhead 11.02.85:
I recall that the SW Division was rather short of stock at this time, which is why they were pressed into temporary service as 3 cars: It was quite regular at the time for a few surburban diagrams to be turned out 4 vice 8 cars daily (what has changed??) and one day the inevital happened when a 3 x 508 was turned out vice 8 x 508 on a morning peak Epsom line duty - nobody realised it was a 3 car from the number untill it was far too late and the train was running, picking up delay as passengers scrambled to get on !
Having done a bit more digging, I can add more to the above: All 508s were reduced to 3 cars at STRAWBERRY HILL (not Wimbledon), expect for 8042 & 8043 which were done at Eastleigh Works (18.11.81) and 8012 & 8013 which were done at York Works. The two done at Eastleigh Works were done rather earlier than the main fleet and the two removed cars were stored at Eastleigh Depot Airport Sidings until needed at York. 8027 also ran in SW service as a 3 car 16 & 17.07.84 in error - apparently it was released to service after the removal of the trailer due to a misunderstanding. 8028 was renumbered 508128 while on the Southern 12.84 and 508037 received the number 508137 on one end only (seen 23.01.85):
The dates I have quoted above for units converted to 3 car for use on the South Western are incorrect - I have quoted the out of service dates in error: The correct data is as follows: 8005 to 3 car c09.8.84 Out of service on SW 10.01.85: 8038 to 3 car 24.08.84 OOS 10.01.85: 8006 to 3 car 16.07.84 OOS 10.01.85: 8029 to 3 car 26.07.84 OOS 22.01.85: 8025 to 3 car 09.07.84 OOS 23.01.85: 8028 to 3 car 04..07.84 OOS 24.01.85: 8037 to 3 car 13.06.84 OOS 07.02.85: 8026 to 3 car 12.06.84 OOS 06.02.85:
It is clear from this that all 8 units did indeed run in service at the same time (memory playing tricks!).
There's an oddity that new Lot No.s were issued for the vehicles of 508139-508143, but only covering the three-car formation. It's not verified but I was told it was in anticipation of them becoming 507034-507038, and allocated to Hall Road vice Birkenhead for the rest of the 508s. As it was the renumbering never happened but 508139-508143 were indeed allocated to Hall Road.
There's an oddity that new Lot No.s were issued for the vehicles of 508139-508143, but only covering the three-car formation. It's not verified but I was told it was in anticipation of them becoming 507034-507038, and allocated to Hall Road vice Birkenhead for the rest of the 508s. As it was the renumbering never happened but 508139-508143 were indeed allocated to Hall Road.
I can remember briefly staying in Wimbledon in July 1984 when I was a child. The place where I was staying I could see into Wimbledon Depot in the distance, and I could see Units that looked exactly like the Merseyrail Northern Line units (then 507s) back home but they were in 4 car formation. They did not move whilst I was there, but I assume these were the 508s that were about to have a trailer car removed before being shipped up to Merseyside to replace the aging 503s that were working on the Merseyrail Wirral at the time.
Would this be correct?
Note - I don't think they were 313s or 315s that were also working in London at the time as I could not see a Pantograph (but back then even these looked very similar, right down to the Blue BR livery).
Note - I don't think they were 313s or 315s that were also working in London at the time as I could not see a pantograph (but back then even these looked very similar, right down to the Blue BR livery).
They would definitely have been the 508s; the 315s had no third rail capability and while the 313s did, I don't think they ever got closer than terminating at Clapham Junction from the West London Line - and that was many years later.
I can remember briefly staying in Wimbledon in July 1984 when I was a child. The place where I was staying I could see into Wimbledon Depot in the distance
Couple of my own pics from back then. A brand new 508 024 in Wimbledon East depot in February 1980 (in the course of work), which would have been visible from Durnsford Road bridge facing London, and one of 508 010 (and a-another) in temporary store on Birkenhead Mollington Street shed, although the latter being a busman's holiday day off from work, any notes I made, including the date, have long gone!
Edited: From the RCTS Railway Observer archive, it would seem that 508 010 and 017 departed the SR for the LM (Birkenhead?) on 24 October 1983, so I am reasonably ok to presume that the other unit in my pic is possibly 017?
Further edit: can now confirm 508 017 is the second unit behind 010 at Birkenhead, and the date was 30/10/83.
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BJ-508 010, Birkenhead Mollington Street shed..jpg
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BJ-508 024, yet to enter service, East Wimbledon Depot 2-1980.jpg
They would definitely have been the 508s; the 315s had no third rail capability and while the 313s did, I don't think they ever got closer than terminating at Clapham Junction from the West London Line - and that was many years later.
Also lurking at either Wimbledon or Clapham Junction for many years were the original 4PEP prototypes (Class 445). Same basic design but the cab fronts looked different, they had three sets of doors per side, and they were in all-blue livery rather than blue/grey, apart from two cars which were unpainted.
The 2PEP had found a new use as a test bed for the dual voltage system to be used in the 313s.
Last time I travelled on the 8 PEP (4001/2) on an UP Sheppy in November '76, my memory of them is in all blue, but it was a dark/wet evening, so if two cars were unpainted aluminium, I didn't notice, the part of the train I joined was blue.
I have photo's of same I took at both Wimbledon East depot (one as Dept unit 056) in blue, and Clapham Yard (4002) in the course of matters duty. When I last photo'd 4002 stored on No 2 siding at Clapham Yard it was in a livery not dissimilar to the early NSE style, although the colours were not the same. Can't find that photo at the mo, it's buried somewhere!
I also took a pic of a blue PEP in a scrapyard (Bird's, Long Marston?), so assume without checking this was 4001/056?
The 2 car I never had any professional involvement with, my last memory of it being in unpainted aluminium sitting on Shields Road depot.
Will try and find my old photo's of same. Not very organised in that department afraid!
Last time I travelled on the 8 PEP (4001/2) on an UP Sheppy in November '76, my memory of them is in all blue, but it was a dark/wet evening, so if two cars were unpainted aluminium, I didn't notice, the part of the train I joined was blue.
I have photo's of same I took at both Wimbledon East depot (one as Dept unit 056) in blue, and Clapham Yard (4002) in the course of matters duty. When I last photo'd 4002 stored on No 2 siding at Clapham Yard it was in a livery not dissimilar to the early NSE style, although the colours were not the same. Can't find that photo at the mo, it's buried somewhere!
I also took a pic of a blue PEP in a scrapyard (Bird's, Long Marston?), so assume without checking this was 4001/056?
The 2 car I never had any professional involvement with, my last memory of it being in unpainted aluminium sitting on Shields Road depot.
Will try and find my old photo's of same. Not very organised in that department afraid!
Last time I travelled on the 8 PEP (4001/2) on an UP Sheppy in November '76, my memory of them is in all blue, but it was a dark/wet evening, so if two cars were unpainted aluminium, I didn't notice, the part of the train I joined was blue.
The 2 car I never had any professional involvement with, my last memory of it being in unpainted aluminium sitting on Shields Road depot.
This is 4001 & 4002 in Wimbledon East depot. Note the 4th car (rear of 4001) is one of the bare aluminium cars from 2001, as per the pic above posted by Norbitonflyer. The other image of 4002 posted by same in experimental NSE colours, is also at Wimbledon East depot.
Will post the others I have, when I get a moment.
Attachments
BJ-4 PEP's, 4001 and 4002 on East Wimbledon Depot..jpg
This is 4001 & 4002 in Wimbledon East depot. Note the 4th car (rear of 4001) is one of the bare aluminium cars from 2001, as per the pic above posted by Norbitonflyer. The other image of 4002 posted by same in experimental NSE colours, is also at Wimbledon East depot.
Will post the others I have, when I get a moment.
For a resident living in the Southern region they were such a radical step change from what had gone before.
In my youth when I saw them it seemed like the future had arrived!
Who’d ever seen a train with sliding doors that wasn’t a tube train? (Obv I’d never been to Liverpool or seen services on the former LNER with such exotic features )
Who’d ever seen a train with sliding doors that wasn’t a tube train? (Obv I’d never been to Liverpool or seen services on the former LNER with such exotic features
Know where you're coming from. The PEP's had a mixed response on the SR as far as I recall. Some liked them, many hated them, less seats than 8 SUB/EPB, less comfortable seats (where have we heard that in more recent times!), same old go-a-round, just a new breed of commuter.
A former Engineering colleague did time in his earlier career at Ilford Car sheds with the likes of 302's, 306's etc., units which I came to know well through regular use of same at odd intervals.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The previous image of 4001/2 on East Wimbledon I took on 23/12/77. 4002 in its unorthodox experimental NSE livery, was planned (by one of my planning colleagues) to trip from East Wimbledon depot via Earlsfield to Clapham Yard for storage on 22 Feb 1983. So I made a point of watching it depart from Wimbledon depot, and it got as far as the exit signal at the Earlsfield end, before someone changed their mind, and it returned through the depot to the Top Yard, and then departed via East Putney - can't remember why, could have been it was no longer cleared for the Up Loop platform at Clapham (and someone had forgotten same?) or possibly congestion on the Up main towards Clapham, who knows, too long ago now!
Anyway a couple of my other pics, one of 4002 sitting on 2 road in Clapham yard in Jan 1988. It hadn't moved by all accounts since arriving there in Feb 83? Finally a shot of 4001 (as Dept 056) in Bird's scrapyard at Long Marston on 4 Aug 1986. The car in view is ADB 975848 (ex S64303), the remains of the other driving car, ADB 975847/S64302, are visible in a skip upper right.
Some reading this may remember that in the various Ian Allan books of the day, 4002 was allocated the Dept number 057. To my knowledge it never carried this number?
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BJ-4 PEP 056 (ex 4001), Bird's Scrapyard, Long Marston. 040886.jpg
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BJ-4 PEP 4002, Clapham Yard No 2 siding. 050188.jpg
Know where you're coming from. The PEP's had a mixed response on the SR as far as I recall. Some liked them, many hated them, less seats than 8 SUB/EPB, less comfortable seats (where have we heard that in more recent times!), same old go-a-round, just a new breed of commuter.
A former Engineering colleague did time in his earlier career at Ilford Car sheds with the likes of 302's, 306's etc., units which I came to know well through regular use of same at odd intervals.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The previous image of 4001/2 on East Wimbledon I took on 23/12/77. 4002 in its experimental NSE livery, was planned (by one of my planning colleagues) to trip from East Wimbledon depot via Earlsfield to Clapham Yard for storage on 22 Feb 1983. So I made a point of watching it depart from Wimbledon depot, and it got as far as the exit signal at the Earlsfield end, before someone changed their mind, and it returned through the depot to the Top Yard, and then departed via East Putney - can't remember why, could have been it was no longer cleared for the Up Loop platform at Clapham (and someone had forgotten same?) or possibly congestion on the Up main towards Clapham, who knows, too long ago now!
Anyway a couple of my other pics, one of 4002 sitting on 2 road in Clapham yard in Jan 1988. It hadn't moved by all accounts since arriving there in Feb 83? Finally a shot of 4001 (as Dept 056) in Bird's scrapyard at Long Marston on 4 Aug 1986. The car in view is ADB 975848 (ex S64303), the remains of the other driving car, ADB 975847/S64302, are visible in a skip upper right.
Some reading this may remember that in the various Ian Allan books of the day, 4002 was allocated the Dept number 057. To my knowledge it never carried this number?
It is what it is. I witnessed bull nosed SUB 4308 sitting on York diesel depot when it first arrived up there, although how many cars it consisted of at that time I have no idea now. Obviously one of its DMC's is now preserved in the museum carrying it's previous identity of 1293 if I've remembered that correctly.
Looking at my pics again of the PEP's having dug them out, it's dawned on me how handsome a design they were in my humble opinion. Very clean lines cab front wise.
Looking at my pics again of the PEP's having dug them out, it's dawned on me how handsome a design they were in my humble opinion. Very clean lines cab front wise.
I agree; much better looking than the eventual production front end - if I recall correctly there was some issue over the clearances between the pointy bits in certain circumstances?
What were they like inside? - I've had a quick web search but can't find any interior pictures - as is often the case from that era with it being more difficult to photograph with lower light levels etc.
I liked the clean and larger area of glazing on the front end of the 151 (compared with the non gangway 150s) , and I would have thought the roof mounted equipment looked somehow 'futuristic'.
For a resident living in the Southern region they were such a radical step change from what had gone before.
In my youth when I saw them it seemed like the future had arrived!
Who’d ever seen a train with sliding doors that wasn’t a tube train? (Obv I’d never been to Liverpool or seen services on the former LNER with such exotic features )
I also remember the introduction of the 508s when I was commuting from New Malden to Vauxhall. I thought they had good smooth lines, and much better looking than the 455s which replaced them - I thought that was a retrograde step!
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