Class 508 - Are they unreliable or not?

[LoverOfTrains]

Hi guys! When Connex SouthEastern and SE used 508s I heard that they were a bit unreliable (I should know as I live right by the station in Kemsley and I know that we used to have them on Sheerness Branch before the 466s replaced them and I traveled on the 508s alot) and I was wandering if the remaining refurbished 508s operated by Merseyrail are as unreliable as the SE 508s?


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[507 001]

I believe connex's 508s were so unreliable because they didn't look after them.

 

[LoverOfTrains]

I believe connex's 508s were so unreliable because they didn't look after them.

Yeah, I thought it was that. When Connex had the South Eastern franchise they suffered finance problems and they weren't that good at keeping trains on schedule and maintained. That's why their franchise terminted early.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But don't forget, the 508's originally started work on what was then the South Western Division of the former Southern Region from about 1979 and displaced to Merseyside when the 455's came on stream. Considering how different they were from a SUB/EPB (that the 508's replaced), the 508's (from what I remember) served the South Western Division very well (about 4 years). They were maintained at Wimbledon/Strawberry Hill and (from memory), had major electrical attention/traction overhauls at the old Slade Green workshops on the former South Eastern Division.

 

[SansPareil]

Does anyone know why the 508s were transferred to Merseyside and replaced with 455s, why not simply build new trains for Merseyside? And what was the thought process behind the 508s donating a TSO to the 455/7s?

Was it simply that the Southern had all the technical know how to commission and troubleshoot new 3rd rail DC EMUs, and once teething troubles had been sorted they could be sent up to Merseyside, Or were there operational considerations as well?

 

[8J]

I guess that one key reason was that the 507's were already on Merseyside and that they are very similar units. Don't forget, PEP units were still being produced after the 508's. In fact, I believe that Merseyrail initially had 30 Class 507's and ordered 3 more after the 508's had been built (507031/032/033).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The 508's were never actually intended for the Southern, they were built as a stop-gap to replace aging slam door SUB units (in particular) until purpose built Class 455/8's came off the production line.

Merseyrail only required 3-car units and therefore the extra TSO in the 508's was surplus to requirements and removed from each unit. As the 508's moved north (and renumbered 508/1 from 508/0), the surplus TSO's were inserted into 3-car Class 455/7's being rolled off the production line at that time

 

[SansPareil]

So if the 508s were originally intended for Merseyside, which required three car units, was the order only bumped up to four car units when it became clear they would be required temporarily on the Southern?

Presumably it's the lack of high level jumpers/compatibility was the main reason that they didn't stay on the Southern, and the extra TSO was inserted into the 455/7s.

Otherwise it seems a little illogical to build a four coach trains, only to then remove one of those carriages to a new three coach train to make it up to four coaches, because you need a three coach train and a four coach train. Unless even then the treasury didn't like the north having brand new trains!

It would be interesting to know some of the background to the rolling stock procurement process back in the late 70s, early 80s. It was clearly just as tortuous then as it is now.

 

[Mikey C]

As a matter of interest, why were Mk3 based EMUs built for the Southern instead of the PEP derived stock, which was designed for the inner suburban routes that the 455s were used for?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I am guessing that the Southern's need for new suburban stock was more pressing than Merseyside who already had Class 507s in production to replace their 503's.

The 507's/508's/313's/315's were a derivative from the PEPs. Only 2 DC prototypes were built - nos 4001 and 4002 which ran trials on the Southern in the early 1970s.

I don't know the thought processes behind the 508's being four-car units other than the fact the Southern were used to 2 and 4-coach trains on its suburban lines and many platforms could only accommodate up to 8 carriages instead of 9 (e.g. 3 508's coupled together). I seem to recall the maximum was 8car 508.

And to add to the Southern's ideal of reusing old parts etc, some 4Sub components were reused in the 455/8 units and still being used to this day. That's 1940s technology working in the 21st century!

 

[507 001]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head re. How and why the stock was ordered the way it was.

The stock was never popular with the SR as they liked to do things their own way and the PEPs didn't conform.