Class 505 / 506 (non) preservation...why please ?

[Lost property]

Over the weekend I visited some friends and became involved with one of those spontaneous conversations with a complete stranger that happen from time to time. We chatted about a variety of topics and railways became one of them.

He mentioned he was, like a lot of the public, interested in "old trains" and wondered why he hadn't seen one class (506) he was nostalgic about as he used them a lot when he lived in Manchester. I said I had the same nostalgia for the 505's.

I said I had an opinion as to why, and this would certainly upset the purists on here, which is not my intent, this being steam is the prime focus of heritage railways, diesels / DMU's a poor second and that two classes of electric train on two small lines in Manchester would be viewed with disdain hence, despite some initial efforts to preserve the classes after they ceased operations, they would never be viewed as relevant for preservation.

He tended to broadly agree with me.

I would be interested therefore to learn more as to why these classes were not preserved and operated as loco hauled stock please.

 

[Townsend Hook]

There are two class 505 centre trailer vehicles preserved at the Midland Railway-Butterley, both undergoing/awaiting restoration as locomotive hauled stock.

MSJAR 117 Manchester/Altrincham trailer vehicle built 1931

MSJAR 121 Manchester/Altrincham trailer vehicle built 1931

 

[Rail Ranger]

117 has now been restored externally in MSJ&A green.

 

[m79900]

There was a 506 at the Midland Railway Butterley, but that was scrapped 25 odd years ago.

 

[The exile]

The MSJAR units really went too early. Also worth pointing out that the number of emus preserved at all is minimal.

 

[37114]

There was a 506 at the Midland Railway Butterley, but that was scrapped 25 odd years ago.

If I recall the 506 was preserved for a bit and intended to be used as hauled stock but I think there was an Asbestos issue with it which meant it was scrapped. A cab survives at the South Wales cab yard.

 

[4SubAsociation]

The 505 was something i wrote about before on this thread.

Incomplete Preserved Emus

In the Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion it was discussed that there is quite a few EMUs that are incomplete (Eg one vechile survives). I will try and answer as many as possible in this thread. Bulleid 4DD 4002. From what i understand it was aimed to preserved a complete set...

www.railforums.co.uk

Class 505 (MSJ&AR electric multiple units). There was a plan to have a motor coach preserved (from what i understand). However the price of scrap copper went up which made it out of reach.

The 506 was preserved complete at dinington before it went to Butterley. However its condition detoriated to the point where the cab from one end survived. The cab was at Coventry (electric railway musuem) and then it moved to the cab yard. Apperently it is going to be moved at some point the Woodhaed Railway Musuem at Guide Bridge. Some work has been done at the cab yard.

 

[billh]

The 506 cab was also in the old Joseph Adamson's storage yard in Hyde, Cheshire for a year or two, next to the Peak Forest Canal. It will be nice if the cab,suitably restored, comes back to Guide Bridge, it can join the recently acquired , but rather inappropriate Southern Railway(?) wagon on the erstwhile platform 2 and 3!

 

[DarloRich]

steam is the prime focus of heritage railways, diesels / DMU's a poor second and that two classes of electric train on two small lines in Manchester would be viewed with disdain hence, despite some initial efforts to preserve the classes after they ceased operations, they would never be viewed as relevant for preservation.

How are you going to run an EMU in preservation?

 

[eastwestdivide]

The 506's very close relative, the 306, is preserved, undergoing restoration at Shildon according to Railway Heritage Register Partnership at:

LNER 65617 Class 306 Liverpool Street-Shenfield EMU built 1949

 

[Alanko]

How are you going to run an EMU in preservation?

Dragged behind a diesel loco? They've been able to use the 303 at Bo'ness as coaching stock behind a Class 27, with whatever modifications carried out for the doors, brakes and lighting to work as expected.

 

[4SubAsociation]

How are you going to run an EMU in preservation?

It would be dragged by a diesel. Although some can be controlled through a diesel. This is possibly for another thread - (already covered here - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/preserved-emus-and-alternative-power.237166/#post-5853764)

 

[12LDA28C]

I have to say I don't really see the point in preserving EMUs - they can't be powered from OHLE or third rail on a preserved railway which limits the use of any preserved vehicles to static museum pieces or hauled stock - hardly what they were designed for. If they are main line certified then that's a different matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have to say I don't really see the point in preserving EMUs - they can't be powered from OHLE or third rail on a preserved railway which limits the use of any preserved vehicles to static museum pieces or hauled stock - hardly what they were designed for. If they are main line certified then that's a different matter.

Because they represent a form of transport used by millions of people on a daily basis and thus have an important roll to play in telling the story of railways / travel etc.

 

[12LDA28C]

Because they represent a form of transport used by millions of people on a daily basis and thus have an important roll to play in telling the story of railways / travel etc.

Maybe so, but they can't be used in the manner for which they were designed unlike a steam or diesel locomotive.

 

[WesternLancer]

Maybe so, but they can't be used in the manner for which they were designed unlike a steam or diesel locomotive.

of course you are correct in that. But that is a different issue in my view. Not a reason not to preserve them - tho I do think that for that reason then the NRM should play a bigger role to ensure relevent representative examples are preserved, along with other regional public museums.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Because they represent a form of transport used by millions of people on a daily basis and thus have an important roll to play in telling the story of railways / travel etc.

Pretty much this, to quote from our group "The Trains that brought you home". Yes they don't have the glamour that certain engines have, Yes they could look boring (although some don't for sure), but it is important we try to preserve these units as they tell a important story of how our railways evolved.

 

[12LDA28C]

Pretty much this, to quote from our group "The Trains that brought you home". Yes they don't have the glamour that certain engines have, Yes they could look boring (although some don't for sure), but it is important we try to preserve these units as they tell a important story of how our railways evolved.

To see an EMU 'stuffed and mounted' in a sterile environment like the NRM is all well and good but if you want to travel on the unit as you remember them in daily passenger service, with traction motors whirring and compressors popping or whatever - you'll be out of luck.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Feel free to have a look at the below video done recently on the 4COR

From thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/preserved-emus-and-alternative-power.237166/#post-5853764

A. A MLV - Eden Valley, More recently Mid Hants diesel Gala
B. Hauled by a diesel of some form - Spa Valley with 3CIG 1497 (Class 73), East Kent with 4COR Motor end and 4VEP trailer (08/Vanguard)

 

[D1537]

Pretty much this, to quote from our group "The Trains that brought you home". Yes they don't have the glamour that certain engines have, Yes they could look boring (although some don't for sure), but it is important we try to preserve these units as they tell a important story of how our railways evolved.

Agreed. I grew up with AM4 and AM10 units (Class 304 and 310) and the fact none of these survive is somewhat ridiculous given their historical value on the WCML.

 

[Alanko]

Pretty much this, to quote from our group "The Trains that brought you home". Yes they don't have the glamour that certain engines have, Yes they could look boring (although some don't for sure), but it is important we try to preserve these units as they tell a important story of how our railways evolved.

A slightly idealist outlook? If you have a finite amount of time and resources, do you pump them into the upkeep of couple of maroon Mk1s or a two-car heritage EMU you can either use as slightly eccentric towed stock or have to dump at a bay platform and use as a bookshop or cafe?

I think we can discount mainline operations as I'm not aware of any heritage EMU kept to that standard. No heritage line is mad or deep pocketed enough to provide power via a 3rd rail or OHEL, and I don't see that changing.

The story of most stock can be told in a few paragraphs accompanied with a few photographs. People largely don't flock to heritage railways to gen up on old EMUs. They want steam and Mk1s.

 

[4SubAsociation]

A slightly idealist outlook? If you have a finite amount of time and resources, do you pump them into the upkeep of couple of maroon Mk1s or a two-car heritage EMU you can either use as slightly eccentric towed stock or have to dump at a bay platform and use as a bookshop or cafe?

I think we can discount mainline operations as I'm not aware of any heritage EMU kept to that standard. No heritage line is mad or deep pocketed enough to provide power via a 3rd rail or OHEL, and I don't see that changing.

The story of most stock can be told in a few paragraphs accompanied with a few photographs. People largely don't flock to heritage railways to gen up on old EMUs. They want steam and Mk1s.

I will divide this into 3 points for each question

1. Br Mk1s are becoming a finite, there is few around at present, but more recently, in the case of the Churnet Valley Railway, one they recently aquired was basically a shell. The EMUs that are around that do need restoration are more complete in some respects. Yes they have there challenges. With the SUB, we do not have the resources to restore it ourself, hence why we are raising to money to have it restored (will need to travel offsite).

2. Mainline operations - Agreed on that one, the only ones i am aware of for sure is the Brighton Belle and the 4VEP, but in the case of the Brighton Belle so much has had to be modified to get this to a stage where it can run its more or less a 60s emu underneath compared to what it was. Also safety is a factor regarding 3rd rail/OHLE

3. Actually at the EKR, when the 4Cor carriage is running, more people go in that carriage than the others due to its vintage nature. OTish but Chris Eden Green did a video on carriages a while ago and covered the bluebell and raised the interesting point that when the general public saw the vintage set sets, they went on those over the modern sets. Also Bluebell have had a slight policy change recently and some Mk1s are leaving so they can run the more vintage stuff.

 

[DJ_K666]

Maybe so, but they can't be used in the manner for which they were designed unlike a steam or diesel locomotive.

The East Kent Railway run them a little bit under their own power. They do use the gradient to their advantage, however.

 

[Lost property]

A slightly idealist outlook? If you have a finite amount of time and resources, do you pump them into the upkeep of couple of maroon Mk1s or a two-car heritage EMU you can either use as slightly eccentric towed stock or have to dump at a bay platform and use as a bookshop or cafe?

I think we can discount mainline operations as I'm not aware of any heritage EMU kept to that standard. No heritage line is mad or deep pocketed enough to provide power via a 3rd rail or OHEL, and I don't see that changing.

The story of most stock can be told in a few paragraphs accompanied with a few photographs. People largely don't flock to heritage railways to gen up on old EMUs. They want steam and Mk1s.

First, thank you for the many and varied replies.

I was unaware the unit at Butterley has now been restored, presumably for external viewing only, as it would be nice to have a nostalgic seat for a few mins.

I think it's fair to say, that, even for an almost "normal " I'm aware of the obvious limitations regarding power supplies and heritage railways, but, I can see no reason, well obvious reason that is, why stock could not have been loco hauled.

Which leads to the post above and my personal, possibly not entirely alone, views.

True, steam has an allure for the public and enthusiast alike...but, do you really think the public know, or care, about whether the carriage is Mk1 / 2 /3 or whatever mark ?...I would suggest not as to many, it's just a nice old nostalgic carriage.

That said, steam has, and probably always will be, the prominent feature of heritage railways which I feel is wrong.

If the heritage sector is to be truly representative of the railways past, then diesels and DMU's should also be promoted along with EMU's running or otherwise.

I did wonder how easy the 505's would be to drive and also, if, by any remote chance, there were any cine films on YT showing a cab view along the line as I've searched in vain.

 

[Trackman]

There was a 506 at the Midland Railway Butterley, but that was scrapped 25 odd years ago.

Yes, it fell to bits apparently. Was it stored at Crewe Gresty road sidings initially or am I confusing it with the AM4 which I think was stored there too?

I have to say I don't really see the point in preserving EMUs - they can't be powered from OHLE or third rail on a preserved railway which limits the use of any preserved vehicles to static museum pieces or hauled stock - hardly what they were designed for. If they are main line certified then that's a different matter.

I wonder what percentage of persevered locos / units / carriages will never roll again? Where there is life there is hope.. never say never ..

 

[DarloRich]

Dragged behind a diesel loco? They've been able to use the 303 at Bo'ness as coaching stock behind a Class 27, with whatever modifications carried out for the doors, brakes and lighting to work as expected.

It would be dragged by a diesel. Although some can be controlled through a diesel

So you are basically saying: I will pay over the odds for something I cant use properly and so will have to use for hauled coaching stock despite actual hauled coaching stock being better for the job! That's before we think about all the technical gubbins needed to keep an EMU in working order.

That's why there are so few preserved!

PS I get hauling might work for the earlier EMU types. How are we going to haul a 321? ( what might be an interesting thought experiment is how the advance of battery technology MIGHT allow a modern EMU to be used in its own "steam" on a proper preserved railway)

 

[Mat17]

Yes, it fell to bits apparently. Was it stored at Crewe Gresty road sidings initially or am I confusing it with the AM4 which I think was stored there too?

The 304 was heavily vandalised. I believe the main issue was lots of broken windows allowing water ingress and consequent rapid deterioration.

It's a shame so many of these EMUs have been lost. Static exhibits have their value too. Would it have been too much to ask to preserve just one full set of 304/5/8 type? - Luckily a solitary 308 carriage survives and a single 504 set.

At least the 306 survives, which allows some comparison with the 506.

I would argue that these units are every bit as important historically as the EM1 and EM2 locos which were thankfully preserved, even though they too will never run again.

 

[Titfield]

It's a shame so many of these EMUs have been lost. Static exhibits have their value too. Would it have been too much to ask to preserve just one full set of 304/5/8 type? - Luckily a solitary 308 carriage survives and a single 504 set.

I would argue that these units are every bit as important historically as the EM1 and EM2 locos which were thankfully preserved, even though they too will never run again.

There are two basic requirements for anything to be preserved 1) the will 2) the funding.

One could also add "the luck" for some "items" to survive long enough for either or both of the requirements to be present.

Sadly there are far more items awaiting restoration / preservation than there are either the funds or the will and thus lost for ever.

 

[JKF]

There are two basic requirements for anything to be preserved 1) the will 2) the funding.

One could also add "the luck" for some "items" to survive long enough for either or both of the requirements to be present.

Sadly there are far more items awaiting restoration / preservation than there are either the funds or the will and thus lost for ever.

It’s hard to raise funds for ‘ordinary’ trains. This should be where the museums step in ideally, as a kind of duty to preserve history. Places like the London Transport Museum seem to do this pretty well, telling the story of everyday transport.

 

[eldomtom2]

I've always felt that the potential of batteries for running EMUs is something the heritage sector should look into more. It's probably a good idea to brush up on their green cred...