Class 465 and 466 set for storage/scrap: possible uses for them in future?

[brad465]

While no 2 classes are the same, were there not some HST power cars in storage for several years that returned to service in the mid-00s?

 

[warwickshire]

13 months it seems and about 7-8 in cold storage. What happens in cold storage - are they regularly checked for example for faults? They were in poor nick before heading with water getting in.

Depending on the corrosion. and state of electrics after storage..
However 465912 sadly has the same said issues. What dosent help is when the 465201 to 465250 series came across by boat ie bodyshells made abroad. Then to be assembled. At the only very recently demolished works of metro camels in Birmingham. Trouble was when brand new. Corrosion prevention was a issue from the start. With extra preventative measures already undertaken. However on the boat the body shells wasant properly protected so already got damage by water from the sea trouble was it was salty sea water. Which didn't do much good. Back in the early nineties when on the assembly line at Birmingham it was reported that some of them was already still damp. From the water. And some early markings ie bodywork already present from the sea water.
Promoting some early extra body work to be done to them. Had bodyshells been made in Birmingham and not abroad. The 4652s 4659s bodywork would have been in a much better position.

 

[Doomotron]

While no 2 classes are the same, were there not some HST power cars in storage for several years that returned to service in the mid-00s?

Not sure about those but GBRf returned a number of 92s to service, some of which had been in storage for around 15 or so years I believe. That said, they were effectively rebuilt by Brush, so not a fully fair comparison.

 

[315801]

It could be possible that they could be all reformed as 3 coach units with 1 trailer coach from the 465s transferred into the 466s although that could still leave some 465s as 4 coach units.

The 3 coach units could potentially have power generation equipment fitted similar to the 319 to 769 conversions or they could be fitted with batteries to enable them to work away from 3rd rail power.

As the batteries would need to be recharging while the trains are on the move, alternators could be fitted on the bogies and be turned by the axles which would provide recharging power back to the batteries ( similar to what happens in cars ) or if not alternators fitted to the bogies, sections of 3rd rail could be laid at various locations to recharge the batteries then once the collector shoes were isolated, the unit/s would move off.

You might all ask well whats the point in reducing some 465s to 3 coaches only to insert them into the 466s, well my thought would be that as not all passenger stops can take 8 coach trains, they can take 4 coach and 6 coach trains as here in the wirral although the 777s meant for Merseyside are practically the same length as our 507 & 508 units but thats another subject for another thread.

My point is that on some of the northern rail lines and some branch lines 6 coaches is the maximum train length some stations can take. So say if there are 50 class 466s for example ( I don't know exactly how many 466s there are ) and they are increased to 3 coach units and the same number of 465s are reduced to 3 to provide a trailer coach for the 466s then that would give 100 available 3 coach units which could all be classed as 465/3 and still be capable of working in multiple with the other 465s.

The earlier option of power generation equipment being fitted as on the 319 to 769 conversions could enable much wider usage similar to the class 165/166 units.

They could be completely rewired and fitted with pantographs, have all seating removed and roller shutter doors fitted instead of their current doors, strengthening work done on the chassis and bodies of the coaches and be repainted into Royal Mail red to assust the current class 325 units of which only 16 make up the class 325 fleet, converting 465 & 466 units to 25Kv or dual voltage would mean more units for parcels and mail trains.

As the saying goes, the possibilities are endless but in my view are worth looking at and as these are current stock, potential operators could save a bucket load of money by using them instead of ordering brand new stock.

Another option would be possibly exporting the units to other countries where the trains desperately need to be replaced say to India for example. They use the same standard gauge as we do and the stock on the suburban lines is in serious need of upgrade or replacement.

If the 465s and 466s were coverted to OHLE power they could provide a much more comfortable solution for passengers in another country.

I could go on all night but I think thats enough from me for this post.

 

[Kite159]

I would imagine the chances of a 465 getting converted to be able to run on OHLE will be about the same as me winning the next lottery. Especially as they don't have Pan Wells.

Parcel/mail trains - wasn't that the plan for the 321s & 319s, units which already run on AC (with the 319s having the advantage of being DC as well).

 

[Roger B]

It could be possible that they could be all reformed as 3 coach units with 1 trailer coach from the 465s transferred into the 466s although that could still leave some 465s as 4 coach units.

The 3 coach units could potentially have power generation equipment fitted similar to the 319 to 769 conversions or they could be fitted with batteries to enable them to work away from 3rd rail power.

As the batteries would need to be recharging while the trains are on the move, alternators could be fitted on the bogies and be turned by the axles which would provide recharging power back to the batteries ( similar to what happens in cars ) or if not alternators fitted to the bogies, sections of 3rd rail could be laid at various locations to recharge the batteries then once the collector shoes were isolated, the unit/s would move off.

You might all ask well whats the point in reducing some 465s to 3 coaches only to insert them into the 466s, well my thought would be that as not all passenger stops can take 8 coach trains, they can take 4 coach and 6 coach trains as here in the wirral although the 777s meant for Merseyside are practically the same length as our 507 & 508 units but thats another subject for another thread.

My point is that on some of the northern rail lines and some branch lines 6 coaches is the maximum train length some stations can take. So say if there are 50 class 466s for example ( I don't know exactly how many 466s there are ) and they are increased to 3 coach units and the same number of 465s are reduced to 3 to provide a trailer coach for the 466s then that would give 100 available 3 coach units which could all be classed as 465/3 and still be capable of working in multiple with the other 465s.

The earlier option of power generation equipment being fitted as on the 319 to 769 conversions could enable much wider usage similar to the class 165/166 units.

They could be completely rewired and fitted with pantographs, have all seating removed and roller shutter doors fitted instead of their current doors, strengthening work done on the chassis and bodies of the coaches and be repainted into Royal Mail red to assust the current class 325 units of which only 16 make up the class 325 fleet, converting 465 & 466 units to 25Kv or dual voltage would mean more units for parcels and mail trains.

As the saying goes, the possibilities are endless but in my view are worth looking at and as these are current stock, potential operators could save a bucket load of money by using them instead of ordering brand new stock.

Another option would be possibly exporting the units to other countries where the trains desperately need to be replaced say to India for example. They use the same standard gauge as we do and the stock on the suburban lines is in serious need of upgrade or replacement.

If the 465s and 466s were coverted to OHLE power they could provide a much more comfortable solution for passengers in another country.

I could go on all night but I think thats enough from me for this post.

The experiences to date with classes 769 and 230 - and with the various proposed parcels / freight conversions, give ample grounds to be extremely wary of such conversion schemes.

Perhaps some lessons have been learnt, but there are still no 769s in service with GWR, and new issues keep arising, eg that prompting the recent ban on Northern 769s operating on AC (now resolved). And then there are the long delays in the Scotrail HST + 4/5 project, which on the face of it seemed relatively straightforward. Similar issues could well be encountered by any life extension plans for classes 465/6. Added to that, the 465s and 466s are notoriously dirty in terms of the electro-magnetic interference they generate - and rectifying this and/or immunising signalling if they're to strech their wings, eg for parcels use, will be very costly - and time-consuming.

So whilst the possibilities on paper may be endless, not that many, if any, are likely to survive contact with harsh reality.

 

[millemille]

The experiences to date with classes 769 and 230 - and with the various proposed parcels / freight conversions, give ample grounds to be extremely wary of such conversion schemes.

Perhaps some lessons have been learnt, but there are still no 769s in service with GWR, and new issues keep arising, eg that prompting the recent ban on Northern 769s operating on AC (now resolved). And then there are the long delays in the Scotrail HST + 4/5 project, which on the face of it seemed relatively straightforward. Similar issues could well be encountered by any life extension plans for classes 465/6. Added to that, the 465s and 466s are notoriously dirty in terms of the electro-magnetic interference they generate - and rectifying this and/or immunising signalling if they're to strech their wings, eg for parcels use, will be very costly - and time-consuming.

So whilst the possibilities on paper may be endless, not that many, if any, are likely to survive contact with harsh reality.

For the sake of balance it should be pointed out that the recent issues with the Northern operated 769's involved an original build component and the failure it exhibited had absolutely nothing to do with the conversion, it would have failed in the same way if Northern were operating the trains as 319's.

It should also be pointed out that the issues with the delays in HST short set delivery were as much to do with the contractor carrying out the work as the work itself.

 

[Mikey C]

Yep S.e London and north Kent are designated areas for major new housing growth under government targets. Some of the largest in the country.

Will the 465/2s even be in usable condition? They've been in store more than a year now with much of that in cold storage. They were also unreliable before withdrawal and never had re-tractioning as the others did back in the late 2000s.

This seems like a bit of a panic move. Probably due to the 707s not coming over anytime soon and a rush to scrap the 365s and 455s.

Still feels weird to me that Southeastern will have all the 465s PLUS the metro 376s AND the metro 707s, whereas Southern will be run entirely by 377, including its metro routes in South London.

 

[Wolfie]

Still feels weird to me that Southeastern will have all the 465s PLUS the metro 376s AND the metro 707s, whereas Southern will be run entirely by 377, including its metro routes in South London.

If 375s are indeed going from Southeastern to Southern then your Southern/377 statement is inaccurate.

 

[Class360/1]

If 375s are indeed going from Southeastern to Southern then your Southern/377 statement is inaccurate.

They won’t. Only the 377/5s are moving to Southern

 

[JonathanH]

Southern will be run entirely by 377, including its metro routes in South London.

Not quite. There are 171s, and 387s not otherwise needed for Gatwick Express services operating Southern services, but yes, almost entirely 377s.

 

[skyhigh]

If the 465s and 466s were coverted to OHLE power they could provide a much more comfortable solution for passengers in another country.

The simple fact is that if 465s converted to OHLE had any reasonable use, 365s wouldn't have been scrapped and would have covered that use instead.

Given essentially OHLE versions of these units were scrapped I can't see why anyone would want to spend millions on producing more of them from conversions!

 

[Wolfie]

They won’t. Only the 377/5s are moving to Southern

Interesting, is that definitive? I'm pretty sure that there have been posts to the contrary on here (yes, l know there is vast amounts of speculation).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2022 ==

The simple fact is that if 465s converted to OHLE had any reasonable use, 365s wouldn't have been scrapped and would have covered that use instead.

Given essentially OHLE versions of these units were scrapped I can't see why anyone would want to spend millions on producing more of them from conversions!

Trying logic will never work lol...

 

[D365]

... and new issues keep arising, eg that prompting the recent ban on Northern 769s operating on AC (now resolved).

In fairness, the 769 AC ban was prompted by a VCB failure that could have happened to any electric unit Class 313-322. The consensus is that the 769 conversion was not to blame (hence why they were still allowed to operate on diesel).

For the sake of balance it should be pointed out that the recent issues with the Northern operated 769's involved an original build component and the failure it exhibited had absolutely nothing to do with the conversion, it would have failed in the same way if Northern were operating the trains as 319's.

Yes indeed and it certainly wasn't a known failure mode.

In any case, off-topic for the Networkers - apologies for my input into the diversion!

 

[Stephen42]

Interesting, is that definitive? I'm pretty sure that there have been posts to the contrary on here (yes, l know there is vast amounts of speculation).

The 375s would need bodyside cameras fitted before being used for Southern. Given the 377/5 have them already and are maintained by Southern losing those first makes a lot more sense. It seems unlikely Southeastern would transfer more than the 377/5s as that's already a net decrease in carriages plus potential shortenings from lack of SDO.

 

[brad465]

The 375s would need bodyside cameras fitted before being used for Southern. Given the 377/5 have them already and are maintained by Southern losing those first makes a lot more sense. It seems unlikely Southeastern would transfer more than the 377/5s as that's already a net decrease in carriages plus potential shortenings from lack of SDO.

Not to mention 377s are already familiar to Southern while they're an anomaly at Southeastern. If SE want to do more about lack of SDO they could of course always actually lengthen the platforms of the affected stations: on the Maidstone East line Kemsing, Barming, Hollingbourne, Harrietsham and Charing are all 6-car max, putting them up to 8-car would be enough. They could probably get away with not doing Kemsing given that has no Sunday service and is skipped more often in the peaks than other stations, but would still be a limiting factor on Networker lengths on that route. There is also a more notable short platform prevalance up to Canterbury West, with 4-car max for the 3 intermediate calls, but if everything is going to return to terminating at Ashford, extending those isn't essential.

 

[Minstral25]

The 375s would need bodyside cameras fitted before being used for Southern. Given the 377/5 have them already and are maintained by Southern losing those first makes a lot more sense. It seems unlikely Southeastern would transfer more than the 377/5s as that's already a net decrease in carriages plus potential shortenings from lack of SDO.

Notwithstanding what would Southern do with an extra 140 units? They've just got rid of 455's because they did not actually need them after they cut services as requested by DfT.

 

[59CosG95]

Notwithstanding what would Southern do with an extra 140 units? They've just got rid of 455's because they did not actually need them after they cut services as requested by DfT.

The 313/2s aren't going to last forever either, so a replacement for them is required.

 

[JonathanH]

The 313/2s aren't going to last forever either, so a replacement for them is required.

There are only 19 of those and I'd imagine the number of 377s needed to fulfil their diagrams is less than the number of 313s needed. It was previously indicated that only 12 377/5s would be transferring.

 

[43102EMR]

There are only 19 of those and I'd imagine the number of 377s needed to fulfil their diagrams is less than the number of 313s needed. It was previously indicated that only 12 377/5s would be transferring.

Last I heard, all 23 will be with Southern at some point, just not this year.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yep S.e London and north Kent are designated areas for major new housing growth under government targets. Some of the largest in the country.

Will the 465/2s even be in usable condition? They've been in store more than a year now with much of that in cold storage. They were also unreliable before withdrawal and never had re-tractioning as the others did back in the late 2000s.

This seems like a bit of a panic move. Probably due to the 707s not coming over anytime soon and a rush to scrap the 365s and 455s.

Perhaps they could take the redundant kit from the 442's if it was salvaged or looking ahead the SWR's 455's

 

[Doomotron]

Perhaps they could take the redundant kit from the 442's if it was salvaged or looking ahead the SWR's 455's

I doubt it's as easy as that. Internally the 442s/455s and Networks are quite different.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I doubt it's as easy as that. Internally the 442s/455s and Networks are quite different.

Should have been clearer I was suggesting that the Klieppe traction motors and inverters could be transposed to 465's to deal with the older kit thats in the 465/2's.

 

[Wolfie]

Should have been clearer I was suggesting that the Klieppe traction motors and inverters could be transposed to 465's to deal with the older kit thats in the 465/2's.

They are highly unlikely to be plug and play components. Who actually owned them anyway?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They are highly unlikely to be plug and play components. Who actually owned them anyway?

The traction package with motors is approved as a system the issue would be whether the motors fit inside the bogie frames and the gearing. The inverters can just hung from the underframe in place of the existing kit.

 

[D365]

The traction package with motors is approved as a system the issue would be whether the motors fit inside the bogie frames and the gearing. The inverters can just hung from the underframe in place of the existing kit.

If systems integration was that easy, rolling stock consultants would be out of a job…

The short story is no. The Class 442 installation cannot simply be ”transposed”.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If systems integration was that easy, rolling stock consultants would be out of a job…

The short story is no. The Class 442 installation cannot simply be ”transposed”.

Granted nothing is simple doesn't mean its impossible. Just a suggesting as a cost effective way to modernise the old kit on these trains if they are being kept for a foreseeable period of time

 

[Doomotron]

Granted nothing is simple doesn't mean its impossible. Just a suggesting as a cost effective way to modernise the old kit on these trains if they are being kept for a foreseeable period of time

Not simple not meaning impossible doesn't make it reasonable. There is a very good reason why trains aren't modernised forever; often something is so beyond being modernised it just cannot be done. The 465s reached that point 20 years ago after the neglect they received under Connex, but to be honest they may well have passed the point of no return before they were even put into service. The nickname 'Notworker' has a reason for being; the Networkers have been so horrible in every conceivable way since they were introduced that anything other than a full fleet replacement is a sick joke to those who have to travel on them. They are not good metro trains due to their low capacity. They are not good regional trains due to their uncomfortable interiors. They are terrible in summer as they are not air conditioned. Going through the massive effort to retraction them again will achieve nothing and just waste taxpayer money.

 

[gmaguire]

Trying to get the Vossloh Kiepe inverters to power the 465's motors might make more sense. I read on here that Hitachi were interested in upgrading the Metro Cammell 465s (and 365s) with the same solution as the BREL units, but unlike Brush, Alstom were unwilling to provide any technical data to Hitachi which would have enabled them to perform the upgrade. Apparently Hitachi even interviewed people who worked on the 365s to try to get the info they needed. It's a shame they weren't able to upgrade the 365s, it may have made the units more viable for further use.

 

[JonathanH]

They are not good metro trains due to their low capacity. They are not good regional trains due to their uncomfortable interiors.

They seat more passengers than a 2+3 format 455 did. I know this forum doesn't like the 165 / 166 / 465 / 466 layout but it does its job and isn't out of place on metro or regional trains. Is a 465/9 really worse than something like a VEP or a 319 as a regional train?

Judging by modern standards, something better could be put in service. However, the 465 interior was very much an improvement on what went before.