Class 465 accessibility improvements

[D365]

I was surprised to hear SE were putting in a bid for some of the spare 319s though - surely they'd be better off leasing ~30 more Electrostars and putting the hateful 465/9s back into the general Networker pool?

The 319s would be in addition to the 25 Class 377s that are slated for transfer in the TSGN ITT - it doesn't look like any 375/6s will be leaving Kent in the interim.

I'd be inclined to agree (though the 455s will surely need replacing sooner or later).

Although developments in planning for Crossrail 2 will play a factor in this, I would hazard a guess at future Desiro City and Aventra procurements for the South West and Southern franchises

 

[jopsuk]

Do the networkers have any sort of "power bus", if they do, could some intermediate coaches from 465s be inserted into 365s without compromising performance too much?

where would five car 365s be at all useful? The GN, and future GW, uses them in 4/8/12 formations.

 

[millemille]

I'd be inclined to agree (though the 455s will surely need replacing sooner or later).

I was surprised to hear SE were putting in a bid for some of the spare 319s though - surely they'd be better off leasing ~30 more Electrostars and putting the hateful 465/9s back into the general Networker pool?

Where do these 30+ Electrostars come from; are there any spare?

465/9's are the ******* child of the 465 fleet - fewer seats than regular 465's so not a first choice for Metro utilisation (when looking at "seats to plan") and incapable of "main line" running speeds. Unreliable, when compared the the BREL 465's Hitachi kit, and obsolete traction equipment. If there is one Networker sub fleet with a more uncertain future it's the "9's".

 

[Class 466]

Where do these 30+ Electrostars come from; are there any spare?

465/9's are the ******* child of the 465 fleet - fewer seats than regular 465's so not a first choice for Metro utilisation (when looking at "seats to plan") and incapable of "main line" running speeds. Unreliable, when compared the the BREL 465's Hitachi kit, and obsolete traction equipment. If there is one Networker sub fleet with a more uncertain future it's the "9's".

Despite all this, the 465/9s will go onto metro routes and join the 11 465/2s upon the arrival of 377s. 465/9s are already booked to work quite a few off peak metro services now that they no longer work as many off peak Tunbridge Wells - London stoppers. (Having been replaced by 375s off of peak time Hastings Services).

It is expected that 319s will go to SE, with an announcement expected shortly.

 

[urpert]

Where do these 30+ Electrostars come from; are there any spare?

What about the ones Porterbrook are building on spec? Or are they spoken for now?
https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html

 

[D365]

What about the ones Porterbrook are building on spec? Or are they spoken for now?
https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html

They won't be compatible with the existing Class 375 fleet in service.

 

[swt_passenger]

What about the ones Porterbrook are building on spec? Or are they spoken for now?
https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html

Is your proposal for 30 Electrostars instead of the 25 already allocated, or in addition to them? So it could be 25, or 30, or 55?

 

[ScotGG]

Thanks for the info on c6 exams. I'm a bit surprised to hear some think networkers only have 11-13 years left. Perhaps the /9s, but those with significant alterations underneath should keep going, particularly as other electric trains have like the 315/17/19? 40ish years planned for them? The issue with Networkers though is Woolwich Dockyard having a short platform meaning many diagrams limited to 10 car when all other platforms were extended to 12 car last year, and there's no usable SDO.

SE need some 319s asap. Even if just for a year from late 2016 until 377s arrive. The scale of development by many stations is huge. Anyone who passes Lewisham, Kidbrooke, Woolwich, Greenwich etc can see the large new builds. Many are completing now.

In some ways its a shame the 387/2s now entering couldn't have gone to SE mid distance routes for 1-2 years before going to Thameslink, and the 442s or 319s given 2 more years with TL. Not ideal, but it would have allowed a boost for SE before the 377s are due in Dec 2017. That could have freed up those 465/9s for metro routes allowing more 8/10/12 car services where possible (see Woolwich Dockyard problem). But I guess all the changes in timetables etc made that a no go.

 

[urpert]

and the 442s or 319s given 2 more years with TL.

*dreams of 442s on the Catford Loop*
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is your proposal for 30 Electrostars instead of the 25 already allocated, or in addition to them? So it could be 25, or 30, or 55?

An additional 30 to give them a uniform fleet (Electrostars for long distance; 465/466/378 for metro). Though as another poster pointed out, the 375s are quite a long way from being compatible with Electrostars currently coming off the production line, which I'd forgotten.

 

[ScotGG]

*dreams of 442s on the Catford Loop*
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ooops TSGN or Southern - whatever they are called now. I wonder if 376s will ever move to Southern or SWT where their 10 car limit is not an obstacle, which it increasingly will be on the 12 car compatible SE metro?

 

[urpert]

Ooops TSGN or Southern - whatever they are called now. I wonder if 376s will ever move to Southern or SWT where their 10 car limit is not an obstacle, which it increasingly will be on the 12 car compatible SE metro?

The 376s are oddities and I suspect that was not the original plan. I remember when Connex announced the order the suggestion was very much that they were 'Networker replacements' on all the metro routes (at least the Charing X/Cannon St ones), yet they never ordered any more than the initial ~30.

Though I suppose they did serve as a proof of concept for what became the Capitalstar.

 

[millemille]

I'm a bit surprised to hear some think networkers only have 11-13 years left. Perhaps the /9s, but those with significant alterations underneath should keep going, particularly as other electric trains have like the 315/17/19? 40ish years planned for them?

The classes you mention that are running, or are planned to run, for longer than 35 years are steel bodyshells and have potential to easily cascade. There is wealth of knowledge and data within the industry on how steel shells age and how to keep them running safely.

465's are aluminium shell and the same level of knowledge and experience and data does not exist; when the BREL 465's shells were discovered with structural corrosion expertise was brought in from the aircraft industry to model and understand the implications.

The 35 year life is based on the predicted fatigue life limit of bodyshells and bogie frames.

As you say, the auxiliary equipment can be kept running with regular overhaul and OEM support.

My personal view is Angel owned GEC built 465/466's will not be life extended beyond 35 years; the traction equipment is obsolete, and has been for some time, and I don't believe Angel have any plans to retraction their units. Some GEC bodyshells have issues with structural defects arising from build and there's the elephant in the room with regards to the liquid sloshing around inside some of the GEC shells and what effect this is having on the life of the shells. Plus there was an issue with some GEC bogie frames and whether they'd require repair or replacement due to manufacturing defects.

The Everhsolt owned BREL built units could be life extended; they've got the Hitachi traction equipment with Hitachi support (although I don't know how long Hitachi signed up to support this), Eversholt have done some work on bodyshells with their past corrosion repair, it's a larger fleet and any work has the potential to read over to the 365's as well.

Like I say, my view and not anything other conjecture....

 

[bramling]

The classes you mention that are running, or are planned to run, for longer than 35 years are steel bodyshells and have potential to easily cascade. There is wealth of knowledge and data within the industry on how steel shells age and how to keep them running safely.

465's are aluminium shell and the same level of knowledge and experience and data does not exist; when the BREL 465's shells were discovered with structural corrosion expertise was brought in from the aircraft industry to model and understand the implications.

The 35 year life is based on the predicted fatigue life limit of bodyshells and bogie frames.

As you say, the auxiliary equipment can be kept running with regular overhaul and OEM support.

My personal view is Angel owned GEC built 465/466's will not be life extended beyond 35 years; the traction equipment is obsolete, and has been for some time, and I don't believe Angel have any plans to retraction their units. Some GEC bodyshells have issues with structural defects arising from build and there's the elephant in the room with regards to the liquid sloshing around inside some of the GEC shells and what effect this is having on the life of the shells. Plus there was an issue with some GEC bogie frames and whether they'd require repair or replacement due to manufacturing defects.

The Everhsolt owned BREL built units could be life extended; they've got the Hitachi traction equipment with Hitachi support (although I don't know how long Hitachi signed up to support this), Eversholt have done some work on bodyshells with their past corrosion repair, it's a larger fleet and any work has the potential to read over to the 365's as well.

Like I say, my view and not anything other conjecture....

Some interesting stuff. Notwithstanding the issues raised, I hope the 465s (and 365s) don't get withdrawn prematurely. In my view they are excellent trains. To be fair to Southeastern, if my recent experience is anything to go by they are reasonably well turned out nowadays - especially considering the rough areas they work. A lot of thought was put into the specification by NSE, and this shows to this day in the pretty good passenger experience these trains offer. Not perfect by any means, and are victims of being built at a time of rapid technological advance, but as far as trains go, pretty good.

 

[D365]

365s definitely won't be out of use for a long time. Just as versatile as the Electrostars of today. See how GWR is leasing these instead of the originally proposed Class 319s.

 

[urpert]

Time t resurrect this thread as I've just been on my first 465/0 (465002) which has had its RVAR mods done. Same seat back and vestibule handles as the 465/9s, new external door buttons, same accessible toilet as the 465/9s - this is a real surprise as I had expected them to remove the toilet completely.

They've replaced the vinyl in the door area but the rest of it is still the decrepit original grey. No other cosmetic changes.

I'll add a couple of pics when I get home.

 

[Class 466]

Time t resurrect this thread as I've just been on my first 465/0 (465002) which has had its RVAR mods done. Same seat back and vestibule handles as the 465/9s, new external door buttons, same accessible toilet as the 465/9s - this is a real surprise as I had expected them to remove the toilet completely.

They've replaced the vinyl in the door area but the rest of it is still the decrepit original grey. No other cosmetic changes.

I'll add a couple of pics when I get home.

I had 465049 last month, to say I was disappointed is an understatement!

 

[urpert]

A few photos are here. Family in tow so didn't get any of the new wheelchair area.

https://flickr.com/photos/22888989@N03/sets/72157674641436654

 

[387star]

Ouch what a clash why not do all the floor

 

[Kite159]

Ouch what a clash why not do all the floor

££££££ most likely

 

[urpert]

Though looking again at my photos I wonder if they've made changes to the floor level /slope in the vestibule.

 

[SF-02]

It's Southeastern. Of course bare bones is all that can be expected. Expect nothing more for 10 years on these clapped out trains long in need of a proper refurbishment.

TfL would likely have done so. A DfT let franchise though? Little to no chance

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I boarded one of these a few weeks ago. Was somewhat disappointed when I saw it. My immediate impression was "Oh? Is that it?".

They've done the good ol' accessible toilet upgrade, swapped the grab handles and put new lino in the door vestibules, whilst ignoring the circa-1992 flooring that features tears, bubbles, burn marks and goodness-knows what else.

Literally the bare minimum in terms of effort. This is something they can get away with on the /9s, because the refurb that converted them from 465/3s back in the early 2000s mean that they still look somewhat respectable.

 

[387star]

Edited

 

[ScotGG]

The uselessness of Govia's Southeastern and the DfT who do nothing for the franchise and area it serves.

The DfT could have pushed for a proper refurb in 2006 when the franchise was re-privatised after the Connex debacle. Didn't.

Could have when temporarily extended in 2012. Didn't.

Then another extension in 2014 for 4 years after the DfT messed up West Coast. Again they didn't. All that happened was this cheap as hell job done as the law forces it to happen.

And people wonder why people have no faith in the DfT being in charge instead of TfL. Nothing will improve with the DfT.

And this happens after every train went to Doncaster a couple of years ago to repaint. Now they all go away again for this very minimal work when a dire need for every train due to London Bridge work reducing frequencies especially out of Cannon Street.

An extensive refurb, with SDO and a real upgrade of the interior, all done together before 2014 when L Bridge work begun, would have given another 10-20 years life.

 

[urpert]

Agreed. The comparison with Southern's 455s (not to mention SWT's outstanding refurb) is dramatic.

 

[ScotGG]

SWT Metro has some downsides of not being TfL (higher PAYG fares) but at least they have staff on-board and a company that is a bit inventive and does great refurbs.

SE Metro has the worst of all worlds. Higher fares and clapped out trains with almost no staff on most stations and none on trains.

 

[MrB]

They've hardly done an extensive job with this! How long are the networkers expected to remain in service - I'd guess around 20 years?

 

[ScotGG]

They've hardly done an extensive job with this! How long are the networkers expected to remain in service - I'd guess around 20 years?

In an ideal world yes but the constant hash the DfT have made awarding Southeastern franchises means probably not, but they have no plan otherwise. Hapless.

 

[hwl]

Ouch what a clash why not do all the floor

The whole point is that the floor is contrasting in the vestibules.

 

[387star]

The whole point is that the floor is contrasting in the vestibules.

correct me if wrong but the GWR 165s... when they went for their internal refresh not long back (the one forced on them by the government) the floor in the vestibule matched that of the saloon? will this be rectified during their present work?