Class 460 DVT

[Steve14]

Just out of interest, I passed Doncaster a shortwhile ago and noticed 3 ex Gatwick express class 460 DVTs. Does anyone know what's being done with these at the moment?

 

[theblackwatch]

Nothing - they are surplus to requirements after the 458/460 rebuild project.

 

[tsr]

They're each going to be assigned to work with a loco and used for push-pull reuse of 442s in the North of England.

*Hides a long, long way away and watches the forum descend into chaos*

 

[Steve14]

They're each going to be assigned to work with a loco and used for push-pull reuse of 442s in the North of England.

*Hides a long, long way away and watches the forum descend into chaos*

Haha to be frank I was thinking the same thing! Or even stick a MTU engine inside them

 

[jopsuk]

Surely the sensible answer would be "stripped of useable parts and the rest scrapped"? There's four of them

 

[BestWestern]

Used in the upcoming Starwars film?!

Ugly b@st@ards!

They're each going to be assigned to work with a loco and used for push-pull reuse of 442s in the North of England.

Yes I heard that too. The locos will be Class 58s fitted with new MTU engines and capable of 100mph...

 

[jopsuk]

fit the trailer out with a large gen set and a pantograph/transformer. Feed to power through to the 442 power car. BOOM. Microfleet of four hybrid dual voltage 100mph Crosscountry units. No idea what service could actually be run using such a stupidly small, specialist, fleet.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

fit the trailer out with a large gen set and a pantograph/transformer. Feed to power through to the 442 power car. BOOM. Microfleet of four hybrid dual voltage 100mph Crosscountry units. No idea what service could actually be run using such a stupidly small, specialist, fleet.

Idly wondering - are these the youngest non prototype vehicles to be withdrawn other than through accident damage ?

 

[theblackwatch]

Idly wondering - are these the youngest non prototype vehicles to be withdrawn other than through accident damage ?

Not at all. They lasted 3 times as long as the Class 14s!

 

[glbotu]

Just out of interest, I passed Doncaster a shortwhile ago and noticed 3 ex Gatwick express class 460 DVTs. Does anyone know what's being done with these at the moment?

Are those just DVTs? It looks as though they have a Pantograph Well? I thought they were DMVs?

 

[D365]

Are those just DVTs? It looks as though they have a Pantograph Well? I thought they were DMVs?

Neither - the technical designation for the luggage van was DMLFO. The Class 460s were not designed with any sort of AC capability, as the fleet was expected to see out its working life on the Brighton Main Line.

 

[glbotu]

Neither - the technical designation for the luggage van was DMLFO. The Class 460s were not designed with any sort of AC capability, as the fleet was expected to see out its working life on the Brighton Main Line.

Right. It's the "M" I was wondering about. As in, they have traction in them, they aren't trailers.

My understanding is they're spare parts donors for the rest of the 458/5 fleet anyway.

Why did GatEx get a dedicated fleet, only to have it replaced by an older fleet and have that entire fleet cannibalised to make another fleet. It all seems horribly wasteful.

 

[D365]

Why did GatEx get a dedicated fleet, only to have it replaced by an older fleet and have that entire fleet cannibalised to make another fleet. It all seems horribly wasteful.

Lack of foresight about capacity utilisation on the Brighton Main Line. When a need for more capacity to accommodate Brighton fasts was identified, Gatwick Express was in line for the chop before a compromise was reached with the Class 442s gone spare.

Can we have the topic title changed to something more accurate like "Class 460 Redundant Driving Vehicles" please?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The four surplus driving vehicles have donated their two sets of passenger doors to the four identical vehicles to allow the large (and previously underused) luggage compartments to be converted to passenger accommodation. This has been covered in the lengthy 458/5 thread.

 

[jopsuk]

Why did GatEx get a dedicated fleet, only to have it replaced by an older fleet and have that entire fleet cannibalised to make another fleet. It all seems horribly wasteful.

They were a direct replacement, without proper thought for actual usage, of the previous dedicated stock- Class 73 locos, Class 489 "Gatwick Lugagge Vans" and Class 488 coaches (two and three car rakes of mark 2 coaches). There were enough for 9 full sets of 73+488/3+488/3+488/2+489, plus a further 73+488/3+488/2+489. Those in turn had replaced the Class 427 4VEG- 12 4-car units that were 4VEPs with extra luggage racks/less seats (like Class 317/8!).

The 460s were replaced by the 442s as there weren't enough especially with the desire to run through services to Brighton in the GatEx paths. The GatEx is underused but subject to minimum service provision agreements with the airport.

So the 460s were spare and of little use elsewhere (very unusual for post 1997 EMUs to be 3rd rail only by design). Someone obviously had a bright idea, ran the numbers and figured out that it was a good value option to provide 10-car trains for the Reading Line, with interim use on the Windsor lines locals.

 

[AndrewE]

Haha to be frank I was thinking the same thing! Or even stick a MTU engine inside them

Why not? We'd be grateful here, (up north, where any extra stock is a bonus, remember?) The transpennine route is desperate for more stock, and if the power could be fed to the original traction motors then there is the benefit of distributed power. The limited number of doors would be OK if they were reserved for a proper trans-Pennine inter-city service...

There must be quite a few redundant DVT's of various types lying around that could be adapted to make ex-emu stock useable quickly where capacity is needed and no electrification is likely to happen in the near future... (or maybe the Shooter machine depends on having lightweight body stock available.)

 

[jopsuk]

Do they still have the motor bogies, or were those taken for some of the conversions? As I recall, there weren't enough motor intermediates?

 

[D365]

The limited number of doors would be OK if they were reserved for a proper trans-Pennine inter-city service...

Bit of a problem there, the passenger doors from the spare driving vehicles have been salvaged for use on the additional 853x units.

Even compared to the Class 442 fantasies, this has to be a new low...

 

[jopsuk]

I suspect there's been a misunderstanding here... They have holes for doors, two on each side like most EMUs. It's just that one set of holes currently have plywood blanks and the other set have roller shutters. In fact, there's also the eight spare roller shutters so those could be fitted. Though the windows are gone too, and the seats I think?

 

[bramling]

Idly wondering - are these the youngest non prototype vehicles to be withdrawn other than through accident damage ?

If we include Underground trains in the above, one unit of Jubilee Line 83 stock lasted only a couple of years in service. I can't recall the exact dates, but it entered service in the mid 1980s, and was "long term stopped" well before 1990, and in the end never ran again, being scrapped around 1995.

Meanwhile, 1973 stock unit 114-514-314 never entered service, being held for training purposes and then become a parts donor. Car 114 replaced a fire-damaged car, whilst 514 become the track recording vehicle. Car 314 never entered service and was scrapped in 2000, never having carried a passenger.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Used in the upcoming Starwars film?!

Ugly b@st@ards!

Yes I heard that too. The locos will be Class 58s fitted with new MTU engines and capable of 100mph...

what utter rubbish...everyone knows that the 86's are going to be returned from Bulgaria and regeared for 125mph, coupled to the 442s (and the 460 DVT) and used on the electrified Inverness-Thurso/Wick services

Ian

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Why did GatEx get a dedicated fleet, only to have it replaced by an older fleet and have that entire fleet cannibalised to make another fleet. It all seems horribly wasteful.

Gatwick Express were under a franchise obligation to replace the 'aging' class 73s and associated stock. They only needed eight units for the service and so an order for eight units was placed. They entered service around 2000/2001.

It wasn't until the Franchise merged with South Central (2008) that there was an obligation to extend the Gatwick Express services to Brighton. Eight units simply wasn't enough for that and, by now, the class 442s were sitting unused after SWT had replaced them with new units.

The 460 Fleet was withdrawn from service and with no one needing an eight strong 'fleet' of DC only electric eight-car units, the fleet sat around doing nothing.

SWT then benefited as the 460s were very similar to their class 458 units, and so the instruction was given to convert the 460s into 458s, leaving four unusable driving vehicles.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What % of the cost of a brand new build driving trailer would it cost to convert them into useable driving trailers?

 

[Domh245]

Absolutely no idea, but putting my best guesstimating hat on, I'd say 80% seeing as all that you've really got is a frame and a shell, with anything of use removed. However, it would be 100% pointless spend as there would be nothing to put them with!

 

[swt_passenger]

leaving four unusable driving vehicles.

That's the really important bit. It's been fairly obvious for about two years that they would never get used again. If there's space somewhere I suppose they (i.e. the Rosco) could keep one as a spare body shell in case of major collision damage, but what's the probability of it ever being needed?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If we include Underground trains in the above, one unit of Jubilee Line 83 stock lasted only a couple of years in service. I can't recall the exact dates, but it entered service in the mid 1980s, and was "long term stopped" well before 1990, and in the end never ran again, being scrapped around 1995.

I'm sure they were still around in service in the late 1990s?

 

[Blaahh]

what utter rubbish...everyone knows that the 86's are going to be returned from Bulgaria and regeared for 125mph, coupled to the 442s (and the 460 DVT) and used on the electrified Inverness-Thurso/Wick services

Ian

Best post ever, only enhanced by returning 58s from France to act as thunderbirds at every station in case of electrical failure.

 

[Mikey C]

Did the Luggage Van get much use?

I assume when Victoria station had airline check in desks, then the luggage van would be used for checked in bags, but this service hasn't been in use for a long time. I read somewhere that after 9/11 the central London check in desks were closed, so very soon after the 460s entered service...

Nobody else would use the luggage van?

 

[BestWestern]

what utter rubbish...everyone knows that the 86's are going to be returned from Bulgaria and regeared for 125mph, coupled to the 442s (and the 460 DVT) and used on the electrified Inverness-Thurso/Wick services

Ian

Oh come on you're just being silly now! Surely everybody knows that Tornado was a secret prototype for the next batch of express locos, as electrification is way too expensive...

 

[Southern Dvr]

I'm sure they were still around in service in the late 1990s?

83ts withdrawn with the jubilee line extension in 1999 when the 96ts came in.

Although referred to as 83ts the latter units were built as late as 1988 & some of them spent longer in store than in service.