Class 458 spare carriages

[adc82140]

From the SWR metro fleet withdrawals thread:

Yes. According to a local source I know from long marston. Who has connections to the site.
They will go to widnes when made a four car. And the other vehicles most likely will go for scrap by road to Simms.
However still interesting to know further how many 458 are going there for storage and or onwards to widnes again locally have heard either 6 0r 8.

I guess these carriages will be going to the scrap man, but would they be compatible with Class 334s? Is it a solution looking for a problem?

 

[JonathanH]

From the SWR metro fleet withdrawals thread:

I guess these carriages will be going to the scrap man, but would they be compatible with Class 334s? Is it a solution looking for a problem?

No use with 334s as the Glasgow system is all set up for 3 and 6 car operation.

 

[D365]

Is it a solution looking for a problem?

yes.

 

[adc82140]

yes.

As I thought. I do wonder if it would be worthwhile keeping one or two bodyshells just in case something happens to any of the intermediate carriages of the 334 or 458 fleet.

 

[43096]

As I thought. I do wonder if it would be worthwhile keeping one or two bodyshells just in case something happens to any of the intermediate carriages of the 334 or 458 fleet.

They didn't retain any of four surplus end cars of the 460s, so unlikely with middle cars. The end cars are, after all, rather more likely to sustain damage requiring replacement.

 

[A0]

I'm frankly amazed that no madcap suggesting involving top and tail class 73s has been made for using these - perhaps crowdbusters between Waterloo and Bournemouth. What a terrible lack of ambition around here.

 

[Speed43125]

I'm frankly amazed that no madcap suggesting involving top and tail class 73s has been made for using these - perhaps crowdbusters between Waterloo and Bournemouth. What a terrible lack of ambition around here.

The ingenious suggestion by that poster on the TPE new locos thread of replacing those 73s with 57s could be used in tandem with this!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They didn't retain any of four surplus end cars of the 460s, so unlikely with middle cars. The end cars are, after all, rather more likely to sustain damage requiring replacement.

Wasn't that (at least in part) because they'd donated doors to the vehicles that were converted? Though I agree that there's little need to retain any vehicles "just in case" when doing so will cost a fair amount with no guarantee they'll be needed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn't that (at least in part) because they'd donated doors to the vehicles that were converted? Though I agree that there's little need to retain any vehicles "just in case" when doing so will cost a fair amount with no guarantee they'll be needed.

Yes, IIRC the removal of four pairs of sliding doors and surrounding bodywork, (to replace four pairs of roller shutter luggage doors), left the four remaining body shells effectively unusable.

 

[43096]

Yes, IIRC the removal of four pairs of sliding doors and surrounding bodywork, (to replace four pairs of roller shutter luggage doors), left the four remaining body shells effectively unusable.

But if you're keeping a spare bodyshell for contingency against accident damage, having the doors missing isn't the be-all-and-end-all. The key point is it's a structurally intact bodyshell that would need overhaul and fit out (paid for by insurance) before it could replace an accident damage vehicle: the doors don't make that any less viable.

 

[DanNCL]

In theory they could be integratred with the 334s, but it would require a lot of work.

Are these vehicles trailers or motors? If the latter, a solution to the 3/6 car issue of the Glasgow network could be to make up a few fixed 6 car formations with 3 of these ex 458 carriages inserted into. 28 intermediate vehicles would allow 9 334s to be made up to 6 car (with a spare carriage left), which would free up an extra 9 3-car 334s. In turn that could allow 9 extra 318/320s to move from the North Clyde/Argyle lines to the Cathcart/Neilston/Paisley Canal lines, limiting the use of 23m 380s and 385s on those lines, which can't run doubled up as they're too long. Obviously if the spare vehicles are all trailers this wouldn't work.

 

[43096]

In theory they could be integratred with the 334s, but it would require a lot of work.

Are these vehicles trailers or motors? If the latter, a solution to the 3/6 car issue of the Glasgow network could be to make up a few fixed 6 car formations with 3 of these ex 458 carriages inserted into. 28 intermediate vehicles would allow 9 334s to be made up to 6 car (with a spare carriage left), which would free up an extra 9 3-car 334s. In turn that could allow 9 extra 318/320s to move from the North Clyde/Argyle lines to the Cathcart/Neilston/Paisley Canal lines, limiting the use of 23m 380s and 385s on those lines, which can't run doubled up as they're too long. Obviously if the spare vehicles are all trailers this wouldn't work.

They are all currently trailers though some were motors in the 460 sets. They were de-motored on conversion, though I think they did retain their under frame power equipment. What state that would be in, I don’t know: you’d think such an easy target for spares would have been taken advantage of.

One other point: would the existing transformer on the 334s be able to take a doubling of the power requirement for a 6-car set?

 

[David Goddard]

My orginal personal view would have been to put the 30 original sets back to how they were, then form the ex Cl460 vehicles into six high capacity ten car trains to work the Woking stoppers, but as said above if the middle vehicles are all trailers then at least half would need motors fitting.
There must be some use in these cars which have had so much spent on them in the last decade already (only seems like yesterday we were keeping watch on the 458/0-/5 conversions)

 

[JonathanH]

There must be some use in these cars which have had so much spent on them in the last decade already (only seems like yesterday we were keeping watch on the 458/0-/5 conversions)

There might have been in a railway flush with cash looking for any way to expand capacity but that is far from the case. Losing these vehicles after 20 years for their scrap value and yield of spare parts is the only real outcome.

 

[43096]

My orginal personal view would have been to put the 30 original sets back to how they were, then form the ex Cl460 vehicles into six high capacity ten car trains to work the Woking stoppers, but as said above if the middle vehicles are all trailers then at least half would need motors fitting.
There must be some use in these cars which have had so much spent on them in the last decade already (only seems like yesterday we were keeping watch on the 458/0-/5 conversions)

Of the original 460 sets, they had 5 motor cars in the 8 vehicles. Obviously two of those were the end vehicles in each set, so there were a total of 24 non-driving/intermediate motors. Of those 6 went into 458531-536 (as motors) and the other 18 were used as the additional cars in 458501-530 as described above. There are 17 of those 18 formed in 458501-528.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

Which vehicle is being removed from the 28 458s please - is it one of the TSOs?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Which vehicle is being removed from the 28 458s please - is it one of the TSOs?

The former 460 vehicle.