Class 458 Future

[lumitumey12345]

Once the rollout of the 701s is complete what does the future hold for the class 458s? Will SWR keep them on suburban runs or redeploy them to the original intended Portsmouth route. Or this may seem a little far fetched but could Southern take them on for suburban Runs? Or the cutters torch....

 

[brad465]

Once the rollout of the 701s is complete what does the future hold for the class 458s? Will SWR keep them on suburban runs or redeploy them to the original intended Portsmouth route. Or this may seem a little far fetched but could Southern take them on for suburban Runs? Or the cutters torch....

I can't see anything other than scrap for them. Neither Southern nor Southeastern would fancy the hassle of taking on a fleet that not only has a history of poor reliability, but also is of completely different design to any of their existing fleets, so add extra maintenance and driver/guard training requirements with little return reward.

 

[43096]

I can't see anything other than scrap for them. Neither Southern nor Southeastern would fancy the hassle of taking on a fleet that not only has a history of poor reliability, but also is of completely different design to any of their existing fleets, so add extra maintenance and driver/guard training requirements with little return reward.

But, how urgent is the need to bin off Networkers at Southeastern, especially given the delay to even placing an order to replace them. So a transfer of 458s to Southern to operate the Brighton fasts/Gatwick service (maintenance at Stewarts Lane, which has previous Juniper experience) allowing around 30 377s to go to Southeastern to bin off Networkers.

 

[lumitumey12345]

But, how urgent is the need to bin off Networkers at Southeastern, especially given the delay to even placing an order to replace them. So a transfer of 458s to Southern to operate the Brighton fasts/Gatwick service (maintenance at Stewarts Lane, which has previous Juniper experience) allowing around 30 377s to go to Southeastern to bin off Networkers.

I was thinking suburban services like Sutton or London Bridge to Victoria runs? Then again I doubt there are enough to justify this compared to the 46 455's Southern previously had.

 

[brad465]

But, how urgent is the need to bin off Networkers at Southeastern, especially given the delay to even placing an order to replace them. So a transfer of 458s to Southern to operate the Brighton fasts/Gatwick service (maintenance at Stewarts Lane, which has previous Juniper experience) allowing around 30 377s to go to Southeastern to bin off Networkers.

I doubt Southeastern need another 30x 377s (15x would probably be enough on top of what they already received this year), and Southern probably won't want to take on an ageing unreliable fleet that also adds complexity to route knowledge and maintenance. The DfT should be accepting Southeastern's new-build fleet tender to bin off the Networkers, not chipping away at them even more with multi-prong cascades.

 

[dan2611_]

Once the rollout of the 701s is complete what does the future hold for the class 458s? Will SWR keep them on suburban runs or redeploy them to the original intended Portsmouth route. Or this may seem a little far fetched but could Southern take them on for suburban Runs? Or the cutters torch....

They'll go in the bin.

No need to cascade them to SN or SE. Its just not economically viable to add 25 year old trains to either SN or SE's fleet.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

They'll go in the bin.

No need to cascade them to SN or SE. Its just not economically viable to add 25 year old trains to either SN or SE's fleet.

Agree. Once the 701 roll out is complete, there will be no need (or stabling capacity) for the 458's, in any guise on the SW network.

This has been done to death so many times, it is becoming boring. The 701 fleet (in numbers of cars) was designed to replace the entire SWT suburban fleet (ie; 455/456/458/707). The physical capacity of all depots and stabling locations on the SW network, was/is such that it was at its maximum at the end of the SWT franchise (2017).

All stabling locations in the suburban and outer* suburban areas (* inclusive of Woking, Guildford and Basingstoke) that had potential for extra siding space to accommodate 10 car formations, was all but exhausted with much expense going in to new/revised siding arrangements put in place at a number of locations.

The end game scenario is thus: everything on the suburban network goes over to 701 operation. Car (quantity) wise amounts to a very small increase over the 455/456/458/707 plan that once existed in reality. However, given that a far larger percentage of trains will be of fixed 10 car formation (701), this requires a substantial increase in 10 car capacity stabling sidings, ie, sidings that can accommodate a fixed 10 car train, without blocking or prohibiting the use of any adjacent sidings.

From a timetable perspective, trains must be resourced (stock and crew wise) from locations(s)/depots that are nearest and relevant to the service group in question. If those locations do not possess the required number of sidings that can accommodate 10 car fixed formations to provide said service........you tell me?

My point being that with all suburban services operated by 701 which will stretch stabling capacity issues even with Feltham in the mix, and all main line (elec) services Desiro (444/450) operated, I doubt there will be any space left to stable any other electric fleet type!

The likes of Clapham Yard and Bournemouth Depot have never been bottom less pits, and it has only been with due diligence of some within both planning and fleets departments in years past that total gridlock/timetable meltdown has not occured.

Apologies if this has come across as a slight rant.

 

[Helvellyn]

Agree. Once the 701 roll out is complete, there will be no need (or stabling capacity) for the 458's, in any guise on the SW network.

This has been done to death so many times, it is becoming boring. The 701 fleet (in numbers of cars) was designed to replace the entire SWT suburban fleet (ie; 455/456/458/707). The physical capacity of all depots and stabling locations on the SW network, was/is such that it was at its maximum at the end of the SWT franchise (2017).

All stabling locations in the suburban and outer* suburban areas (* inclusive of Woking, Guildford and Basingstoke) that had potential for extra siding space to accommodate 10 car formations, was all but exhausted with much expense going in to new/revised siding arrangements put in place at a number of locations.

The end game scenario is thus: everything on the suburban network goes over to 701 operation. Car (quantity) wise amounts to a very small increase over the 455/456/458/707 plan that once existed in reality. However, given that a far larger percentage of trains will be of fixed 10 car formation (701), this requires a substantial increase in 10 car capacity stabling sidings, ie, sidings that can accommodate a fixed 10 car train, without blocking or prohibiting the use of any adjacent sidings.

From a timetable perspective, trains must be resourced (stock and crew wise) from locations(s)/depots that are nearest and relevant to the service group in question. If those locations do not possess the required number of sidings that can accommodate 10 car fixed formations to provide said service........you tell me?

My point being that with all suburban services operated by 701 which will stretch stabling capacity issues even with Feltham in the mix, and all main line (elec) services Desiro (444/450) operated, I doubt there will be any space left to stable any other electric fleet type!

The likes of Clapham Yard and Bournemouth Depot have never been bottom less pits, and it has only been with due diligence of some within both planning and fleets departments in years past that total gridlock/timetable meltdown has not occured.

Apologies if this has come across as a slight rant.

Which is why the 442s were, and the original intent with the 458/4s was to have them, based at Bournemouth because it was the only traction maintenance depot with capacity to maintain a non-core fleet - Wimbledon having the 701s, Northam the Desiros and Salisbury the diesels. Everywhere else is stabling/servicing/light maintenance. If SWR really needs extra units then surely, subject to approvals, some 350/2s would be preferable (and they'd need minimal reconfiguration to match the 450s given the 3+2 seating).

 

[dan2611_]

Which is why the 442s were, and the original intent with the 458/4s was to have them, based at Bournemouth because it was the only traction maintenance depot with capacity to maintain a non-core fleet - Wimbledon having the 701s, Northam the Desiros and Salisbury the diesels. Everywhere else is stabling/servicing/light maintenance. If SWR really needs extra units then surely, subject to approvals, some 350/2s would be preferable (and they'd need minimal reconfiguration to match the 450s given the 3+2 seating).

SWR most likely wont get the 350/2’s. Once again, an ageing fleet that needs to be adapted for 3rd Rail Running. Plus Im pretty sure they have a surplus of 450s so the 350s likely arent needed once the 701/5s are in service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If SWR really needs extra units then surely, subject to approvals, some 350/2s would be preferable (and they'd need minimal reconfiguration to match the 450s given the 3+2 seating).

Oh, not again, please!

 

[Snow1964]

My point being that with all suburban services operated by 701 which will stretch stabling capacity issues even with Feltham in the mix, and all main line (elec) services Desiro (444/450) operated, I doubt there will be any space left to stable any other electric fleet type!

The likes of Clapham Yard and Bournemouth Depot have never been bottom less pits, and it has only been with due diligence of some within both planning and fleets departments in years past that total gridlock/timetable meltdown has not occured.

Although to be fair SWR (and SWT before them) didn't put much effort into spending their funds to convert former sidings into additional stabling/servicing spaces.

Examples that could have been include Basingstoke West yard which could have had 6 or 7 12car sidings (probably 24car before some land was sold off); Brockenhurst where 3 or 4 12car roads could have been built; or former race platforms at Esher and Ascot reused as sidings. Of course would have needed money to configure them properly, but in all these examples the land still exists, and is nowadays just used for growing weeds.

Really they tried to make do with what sidings they had, tweaking it a bit, and adding Feltham. Barely able to hold everything when there wasn't any problems and trains ended up in correct place. No attempt at contingency space.

Remember the March 2017 franchise commitment was 750 class 701 (almost exactly same number as 455, 456, 458, 707 fleet they were to replace), plus 90 class 442s and all 444, 450, 159s.

As the 90 (18 x 5car) class 442 (which being longer 23m vehicles are equivalent to 108 20m cars) were replaced by 28x 4car 458, numbers are similar, so should be sufficient siding space. The only difference is some 115m long units are replaced by 81m units which means 6-7car (20m) sidings (which are fairly rare on SWR) cannot be utilised fully.

 

[Ridgeblog]

Honestly, I really was wondering if they would even extend the refurbishment to the remaining 8 units as well considering how much trouble there was putting the 701s into service and swr's track record of throwing money into upgrading stock which they'll soon dispose of.

I don't believe that the 458s should stay (or even could stay anywhere for that matter), and I do think sometimes there's not a place for all stock and new ones have to come eventually, but I do think they had something going with the original plan of deploying them on Portsmouth services and running alongside with the 450s as they were after all designed to be compatible especially from the refurbishment before that which combined the 460s unusually to make them 5 cars. It's basically the same now, except they're 4 cars this time. It's just that unfortunate circumstances took place at the wrong time, otherwise I think it could've worked and solved some passenger issues they've been having.

 

[DM352]

It won’t happen but 458’s on the south coastway route where 313’s used to run? South eastern could get a few extra 377’s from a cascade of this but get it would be a micro fleet for the 458’s

 

[Class 466]

Personally wouldn't be surprised if 458s or some 701/5s end up at SE - notable that SWR still have no announced plans to introduce the latter.

 

[Helvellyn]

Oh, not again, please!

I was simply saying if they needed extra units then the 350/2s would surely be best rather than a microfleet of retaining the 458/4s. No need to be so dismissive.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I was simply saying if they needed extra units then the 350/2s would surely be best rather than a microfleet of retaining the 458/4s. No need to be so dismissive.

Twenty eight units is not a microfleet. The current fleet of three /5s is a microfleet, as was c2c’s six 387s, and TfL’s 360/2s. But that’s all good.

 

[Snow1964]

Twenty eight units is not a microfleet. The current fleet of three /5s is a microfleet, as was c2c’s six 387s, and TfL’s 360/2s. But that’s all good.

28 units is more than the 22 class 159s or 7 ex class 158s now known as 159/1
OK, could combine them and say have 29 units, but still a smaller number of vehicles than the 458/4s.

I agree with @TT-ONR-NRN would classify them as micro-fleet, smallish maybe, but not micro