Class 458/5

[cjmillsnun]

I will agree that 455s could do with some better ventilation even if its just a couple of fans to improve airflow.

Open the gangway doors at each end

 

[Matt Taylor]

It was 450567 last week.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/14360240226/in/photostream


That was done at Southsea sidings, it worked a peak service to Waterloo, a Hounslow rounder and then went to be cleaned up.

 

[hassaanhc]

I will agree that 455s could do with some better ventilation even if its just a couple of fans to improve airflow.

The /7 and /8 variants already have blowers throughout the middle of the ceiling but they don't really help at all:

South West Trains Class 455/7: Refurbished Interior by hassaanhc, on Flickr

Note the lower ceiling at the inner ends of the DTSO and also the next coach, it seems the equipment is stored in here as there are also roof hatches*, and the /9 variant don't have the centre vents and the lower ceiling. They do however have a couple of small vents dotted around the saloon but they're half-covered by the advert holders.

* This means they virtually have a pantograph well already
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On the 455 ventilation issue, if they're going to be around longer will there be any adjustments to the windows, does anyone know? SWT have said that it's not possible to change the design but to a layman (I know) it looks like it could be possible to fit wider restricting baffles (see how I am with the technical words?) to allow the hoppers to open further. Just would make a massive difference in hot weather or even in warmish weather when full.

I would agree with it being fairly easy, the side restrictors can be unscrewed and replaced :P

 

[Goldfish62]

I see 533 and 535 managed half a day yesterday before expiring yet again.

 

[TEW]

Down to just 1 unit in service today. The Houslow Loop/Weybridge diagram is a single unit. The Windsor diagram is a pair of 455s.

 

[hassaanhc]

Down to just 1 unit in service today. The Houslow Loop/Weybridge diagram is a single unit. The Windsor diagram is a pair of 455s.

458533 was the one used today. No mention about either that diagram or the Windsor one being Short formed.

 

[TEW]

It was up on journey check this morning. Hounslow as 5 vice 10 and Windsor as 8 vice 10 with no toilet facilities.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not looking good, is it? None of the four units can seem to manage more than a few days without a failure.

 

[Olaf]

Is there a clause in the contract that will permit SWT to cancel the conversion project given the ongoing problems and delays?

 

[infobleep]

Noticed a 455,i think it is, at Weybridge this morning for the Chertsey line. It may be that those services are now going to be without loos permanently but I'm sure the people using the one would rather that wasn't the case.

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[hassaanhc]

Noticed a 455,i think it is, at Weybridge this morning for the Chertsey line. It may be that those services are now going to be without loos permanently but I'm sure the people using the one would rather that wasn't the case.

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Weekend on the Hounslow and Weybridge services is normally a single 455 unit, only when there is a need to run 8 cars you will find 450s at weekends. 8-car 455s wouldn't be able to stop at Chertsey in both directions and possibly Virginia Water towards Egham because of short platforms and no SDO system.
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A bit later (11am or so) the Weybridge via Hounslow services will be diverted to Windsor & Eton Riverside to replace the usual Windsor service via Richmond which will not run for much of the day. This is to free up paths for extra services to Ascot (and Chertsey and Addlestone will have replacement buses to Virginia Water and Weybridge).

 

[Chris125]

Is there a clause in the contract that will permit SWT to cancel the conversion project given the ongoing problems and delays?

I can't see what it would achieve - some units have already been completed, others are well underway, cancelling isn't going to produce the extra capacity any quicker and the extra work sorting out unforeseen corrosion would need doing sooner or later regardless.

It's a shame that things have gone so badly, but 458s have overcome a troubled introduction and extremely poor reliability before so there's good reason to think this will be worth it in the end.

Chris

 

[infobleep]

South West Trains have removed the note about the 450 being used for the 8.36 Guildford to Waterloo service via Cobham and later routes, from there journey check Web Site. I thought things must have returned to normal. So I headed out to catch the 8.31 to Woking because that has loos.

I was very delighted when I saw the 8.36 was still made up of 8 450 cars. Turns out they have now finished lengthening all the platforms, which is the only reason why the message went on their Web Site. I doubt I'll know what they did at the weekend, as bar the boards blocking access to the extension, they already looked completed to me. I'm no expert though.

This service was supposed to only be used for several weeks but may be passengers using this line will be lucky and it will be several months. It's nice sitting in a first class carriage during the end of peak rush hour for a change. Lol.

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[infobleep]

Guard accidentally pressed the catering at seat service button this morning. Cue announcement. If Cobham line passengers really did get such a service, they'd think all there Christmas's had come at once. On any of the fast lines I wouldn't find the accidental pressing so amusing. It's just this line, given its usual rolling stock. Lol.

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[swt_passenger]

Noticed a 455,i think it is, at Weybridge this morning for the Chertsey line. It may be that those services are now going to be without loos permanently but I'm sure the people using the one would rather that wasn't the case.

455s have been standard on Weybridges on Saturday for about 4 or 5 years. You might be reading too much into this observation...

 

[infobleep]

Indeed I was. I wonder if that will change at all when the additional stock work is completed.

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[swt_passenger]

Indeed I was. I wonder if that will change at all when the additional stock work is completed.

Can't see any logical reason why it would change. They run single 455s on Saturdays, and this means they can use them on far more services, I presume because they are the cheapest train to operate.

Until/unless they see a need to run the whole normal Saturday (or Sunday) timetables with weekday capacity levels, I'd expect 455s would continue.

 

[Olaf]

I can't see what it would achieve - some units have already been completed, others are well underway, cancelling isn't going to produce the extra capacity any quicker and the extra work sorting out unforeseen corrosion would need doing sooner or later regardless.

It's a shame that things have gone so badly, but 458s have overcome a troubled introduction and extremely poor reliability before so there's good reason to think this will be worth it in the end.

Chris

Yes, I agree with ploughing, but only if a project has a reasonable chance of success within an acceptable timescale.

There are a lot of extra costs to all concerned due to the excessive optimism at the outset and I would assume that SWT have not yet fully discarded the kill-option.

This project should also serve as a warning to any managers considering other fantasy conversion exercises.

 

[swt_passenger]

This project should also serve as a warning to any managers considering other fantasy conversion exercises.

Yes. Stuff like AC 442s springs to mind doesn't it...

 

[Olaf]

Yes. Stuff like AC 442s springs to mind doesn't it...

Spot-on.

 

[3141]

This project should also serve as a warning to any managers considering other fantasy conversion exercises.

Converting 25-year-old 442s with DC motors to AC operation would be a "fantasy", but converting class 460 with AC motors to run with the very similar 458s when both are 15 years old or less still seems a sensible idea. I cannot say whether the corrosion problems might have been foreseeable, or not.

If the project was abandoned now it would take longer to get another type of train into service.

 

[Via Bank]

Converting 25-year-old 442s with DC motors to AC operation would be a "fantasy", but converting class 460 with AC motors to run with the very similar 458s when both are 15 years old or less still seems a sensible idea. I cannot say whether the corrosion problems might have been foreseeable, or not.

If the project was abandoned now it would take longer to get another type of train into service.

One suspects the 458/5 project might have been more successful if certain parties (ahem you know which) hadn't dragged their heels, leading to the 460s spending such a long time in storage. If the corrosion problems, for instance, had been picked up sooner. But oh well.

A cancellation is vanishingly unlikely. One could argue that SWT could add extra units with toilets to their current suburban ITT (clearly aimed at procuring something like the Desiro City or Aventra) but those units haven't even been ordered yet, and won't be delivered for years, even without an order for 175 extra cars added as an afterthought. The 458/5s are now, at least, starting to be delivered.

 

[Domh245]

There is currently a 4 car 458 coupled up to the barrier wagons and 47739 in Wimbledon park depot (next to the district line) assumably this will be moving to Wolverton tonight

 

[WarrenTManager]

8004. Has had a broken nose since a suicide at Putney a long while back. Will be able to multiple at both ends when it comes back. No path in yet though. Very short term planning!
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458s to Doncaster. 456s to Wolverton

 

[infobleep]

Guard announced the short platforms at Cobham; Oxshott and Claygate this morning whilst on the 8.36 from Guildford to Waterloo. The train is a 450. Not all the doors opened at Cobham but they did at Oxshott and Claygate. Is there an issue with the platforms at Cobham or did the guard make a mistake, given that they are only human?

Does anyone know when the 455 train will return to service on the 8.36. Was meant to be for several weeks, which it now is. From a selfish point of view the longer the better.

 

[Olaf]

Converting 25-year-old 442s with DC motors to AC operation would be a "fantasy", but converting class 460 with AC motors to run with the very similar 458s when both are 15 years old or less still seems a sensible idea. I cannot say whether the corrosion problems might have been foreseeable, or not.

If the project was abandoned now it would take longer to get another type of train into service.

It is not the technical difficulties that I am thinking of; if the cost gets too great for either party then I would expect that they have the option to cut their losses. Yes SWT will be short of extra seats for a bit longer (that could be addressed by diversion of other orders as has happened before), but these are the sort of calculations that the parties involved will be making.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is not the technical difficulties that I am thinking of; if the cost gets too great for either party then I would expect that they have the option to cut their losses. Yes SWT will be short of extra seats for a bit longer (that could be addressed by diversion of other orders as has happened before), but these are the sort of calculations that the parties involved will be making.

And in any case the corrosion issue only delayed the project by about 4-5 months. It's all the problems since that are the main issue.

 

[Emblematic]

However the most extensive modifications by far are for the six 'new' trains, with new cabs, former driving luggage vans to convert and so on. The thirty existing trains being extended should be a simpler, more repeatable process, so the chances of the project being stopped now is quite remote. Amongst other considerations, the class 460 units are no longer usable for anything else, with all eight DMSOs having been rebuilt into 458/5 units already. They are quite young, so had considerable residual value and wont be written off lightly.

 

[Defiance149]

8004. Has had a broken nose since a suicide at Putney a long while back. Will be able to multiple at both ends when it comes back. No path in yet though. Very short term planning!

47739 showing at Wimbledon since 24/6 so appears 8004 is still waiting to make the trip.

 

[Olaf]

However the most extensive modifications by far are for the six 'new' trains, with new cabs, former driving luggage vans to convert and so on. The thirty existing trains being extended should be a simpler, more repeatable process, so the chances of the project being stopped now is quite remote. Amongst other considerations, the class 460 units are no longer usable for anything else, with all eight DMSOs having been rebuilt into 458/5 units already. They are quite young, so had considerable residual value and wont be written off lightly.

I agree with you statements regarding the risks around the six new units, however there are still reliability problems with those that have entered service and so there as yet been an acceptable product delivered.